The atrocity of the Akallabêth

[Lalwendë]

Whoa! Just put the baggage down on the floor and walk away from the vehicle!

Originally Posted by lmp

This is debatable. There are numerous references in LotR to things that are "meant" to be; by whom? It is never stated baldly that it is Eru, for to do so would do violence to the story the way Tolkien intends to tell it, but the reference is there nonetheless; regardless of whether one agrees that this is Eru, the burden of proof is on those who would argue that it is not Eru.

These 'fate' references could be to just about anything because Tolkien 'never stated baldly' what was turning the wheels of his created world. If we then say "oh well it must be this" we are the ones 'doing violence' to the story as it unravels the whole complexity of reference and meta-reference and reduces the leaf mould of the mind to sterile mushroom compost. Tolkien, well versed in Literature and myth of all kinds weaves in things which could come from the Eddas, from Beowulf, from Celtic myth, from his won belief, from other fantasy....he does not wish to pin the text down to meaning one thing or have events pinned down to originating from one source. In this way he builds mystery (and a work of such complex genius none of us could ever repeat it). And to say that if we don't accept that Eru pushed Gollum into the cracks of Doom or Eru made Bilbo go off on his adventures (etc.) that we are wrong is to reduce the starnge and wonderful events of the text to having One Meaning Only and makes it just a dull old text book, one in which we have no capacity to stand back when a Hobbit falls into the cracks of Doom in awe and go ".....wow...."

Originally Posted by lmp

To suggest that Eru is a weapon of mass destruction wielded by the Valar doesn't work, for then one is saying that the Valar control Eru, which cannot be. Thus the analogy breaks apart. Eru is more than a mere weapon. Point of fact, this is a derogatory statement that is rather offensive to the theists amongst us.

Why? Has it come to pass now that Eru=God? Where did that happen? I thought we were discussing a work of literature not a holy scripture?

Sorry I do not like the way that this is headed. If other people dissecting a literary creation causes offence it's maybe time to accept that people read books in many different ways? Point of fact for me. Eru is an oddball. He creates a world where there is evil, he creates a world knowing that its not perfect and never can be. He creates evil beings like Melkor. That's not how I see my own world (but can perfectly accept it in a literary creation). Maybe its not how Tolkien saw his own world, but nevertheless that's what's in the text. And on top of all of this, Eru stands right back and does not get involved until the Valar muck around with things that they ought not to done and Dad has to come in and sort out the kids' mess - he does it by grabbing everything and hurling into a big cosmic bin bag and then goes back to his study to resume smoking his pipe in peace.

I can't say I like Eru at all. There are some kind of rules it seems but he never tells anyone what they are. Cheers. You can fear Eru but there's nothing to love in him. The people may love Varda or Manwe or Melkor but nobody particularly loves Eru. And you've got to wonder why. Thank goodness I don't live in that world - I can do without some omnipotent creator who can squish me at any time for no discernible reason and doesn't even give me the respect due of providing me with some 'rules'.