The atrocity of the Akallabêth

[Elmo]

Can I just point that if Eru himself is a moral character or not characters in Middle Earth believed he was a moral guide. Consider Tar-Meneldur when he receives the letter from Gil-Galad. He doesn't know what to do because whatever he does - to help Gil or not will result in death and he doesn't know how he will explain what he does to Eru.

[davem]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Can I just point that if Eru himself is a moral character or not characters in Middle Earth believed he was a moral guide. Consider Tar-Meneldur when he receives the letter from Gil-Galad. He doesn't know what to do because whatever he does - to help Gil or not will result in death and he doesn't know how he will explain what he does to Eru.

Which is just what causes the problem from an aesthetic perspective. Eru doesn't live up to the hype.

[Elmo]

I'd like to comment on that from an aetheist's perspective but this is a Middle Earth Forum...

[The 1,000 Reader]

I didn't read the thread through, but I noticed Numenor being spoken about, so I'll share my opinion on the subject.

Did anyone else think that Numenor was already on the road to doom before Sauron came there? Ar-Pharazon was ruler, the people were growing hostile to the concept of the elves being the only creatures with immortality, and Sauron was just the final piece of the puzzle that might not have even been truly required.

[Tar-Telperien]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I didn't read the thread through, but I noticed Numenor being spoken about, so I'll share my opinion on the subject.

Did anyone else think that Numenor was already on the road to doom before Sauron came there? Ar-Pharazon was ruler, the people were growing hostile to the concept of the elves being the only creatures with immortality, and Sauron was just the final piece of the puzzle that might not have even been truly required.

Yes, this is a very common reading. The people and King had to have a certain degree of folly and pride before they would bring Sauron to their land, after all. However, to some degree this way of thinking gets close to the infamous "fate vs. free will in Arda" topic...

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Tar-Telperien

Yes, this is a very common reading. The people and King had to have a certain degree of folly and pride before they would bring Sauron to their land, after all. However, to some degree this way of thinking gets close to the infamous "fate vs. free will in Arda" topic...

It was their free will that made them arrogant and ignorant and thus sealed their fate?

[Raynor]

It is worth noting that part of the blame rests with the valar for giving the numenoreans such great gifts - all the more reason for their vanity

Originally Posted by Letter #131

The Downfall is partly the result of an inner weakness in Men – consequent, if you will, upon the first Fall (unrecorded in these tales), repented but not finally healed. Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment! The Fall is achieved by the cunning of Sauron in exploiting this weakness. Its central theme is (inevitably, I think, in a story of Men) a Ban, or Prohibition.

[Tar-Telperien]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

It was their free will that made them arrogant and ignorant and thus sealed their fate?

I was talking about the extent to which they were fated to become corrupt was probably at least somewhat determined by the gifts of the very Valar they rebelled against, as Lalwendë pointed out. In fact, Tolkien mentions as much in the letter prefaced the Second Edition of The Silmarillion: "Their long life aids their achievements in art and wisdom, but breeds a possessive attitude to these things, and desire awakens for more time for their enjoyment." The implication of this statement is that if the Númenóreans had not been given that increase in life span, they would not have pined (so much) for yet more life.

Aside from that, the Valar did a very poor job in dealing with the Númenóreans anyway, probably because they did indeed have more difficulty understanding Men than Elves. In Númenor's last years, they sent all sorts of frightening (and lethal) storms and other signs of their displeasure, which understandably scared the Númenóreans. The Númenóreans' reactions were motivated by this fear and the aggression they perceived in the acts of the Valar; their (hardly unreasonable) understanding was that the Valar must really be the cruel enemies Sauron said they were.

Not to mention the continuing coldness of the Valar toward Númenor after Tar-Palantir's repentance; this was an inexcusable act on their part. So what if most of the people did not follow in Tar-Palantir's footsteps? A sign of blessing from the Valar upon their King might have induced some of them to change their thinking. But instead they did nothing at this very crucial time in Númenor's history, whereas they had no qualms in pelting the Númenóreans with curses afterwards! Too much negative reinforcement, and no positive reinforcement whatsoever. Men react violently against that which they fear, against that which they see as a terrible obstacle that has never done them any good. It's elementary for us to understand, but for some reason the Valar never got it. And in the end, they might have fully realized their mistake, hence their appeal to Eru for help in dealing with the Númenóreans who had finally come to their shores to confront them once and for all.