Saruman and betrayal

[Rhod the Red]

As seems the case in all examples, and in life generally, we give others the benefit of the doubt to trust them. Only at the last minute does the White Council know of Saruman's treachery. The same with the books and life generally.

[Břicho]

This is an interesting thread. Animalmother I find it fascinating that you think Gandalf lied in order to not corrupt any people in the Council. Your argument makes sense to me;and I LIKE it, somehow; except I would suggest that Middle-Earth is NOT earth as we know it(of course, this is obvious, but bear with me.) Gandalf consistently not only displays an ability to manipulate(towards the common good) but an ability to "fire up men's hearts" to instill courage--of course I know you know that. But Gandalf displays another trait very consistently, so consistently that he's able to let go of the most powerful instrument on Earth, and let it go into darkness and uncertainty; this would be sheer madness if we were talking about an atomic bomb, wouldn't it?

This other trait that Gandalf displays--and which I think you forget-- is FAITH.

He has a FAITH in a higher power that leads him to believe that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, Frodo was meant to have it, and possibly, hopefully, Frodo was meant to somehow wander into Mordor and destroy the Ring, and so on. He displays FAITH in Pippin; somehow, for somereason Merry and Pippin are MEANT to be in the Fellowship of the Ring, and so on.

Given that Elrond has a certain faith, too, that the Members of the Council had been "called" for the purpose of the council(though not by him, actually ORDAINED by some higher power to be there) I think it's possible that Gandalf would have trusted that it was indeed and spoken freely. Also, I think that Gandalf and Elrond, and a few others in the Council could sense corruption and evil better than most; they weren't easily deceived--it took a Wizard to pull the wool over their eyes.

In my opinion in your interpretation, Gandalf did not have much faith; he sent Frodo away because there was no other choice, merely. But I don't find that believable: only in the context of Gandalf's incredible FAITH(though not doubtfree) does the decision to send off Frodo to Mordor seem believable to me, character-wise.

Also...from Saruman's side.
Again, your interpretation is plausible; there's something even cool about it; but he simply could have been a little batty, and slipped up.
He did not necessarily understand Gandalf's intentions; perhaps a little part of Saruman had always wanted to rule and he simply assumed, as Gandalf was of the same high, rare order as he that Gandalf had the same intentions--that they were meant to counter Sauron: and one way to do that was to rule.

I say SARUMAN DID NOT UNDERSTAND GANDALF at all; because Gandalf had a certain FAITH(maybe Faith is a sort of wisdom) and Saruman didnt have it and never had had it.
His "wisdom" had always been more as you have painted Gandalf's--a Machiavellian, scheming, clever, manipulative wisdom.

Gandalf could be that way, too, to be sure, but his chief wisdom and what set him aside from many in Middle Earth was in his trust in FAITH and belief that some things happened for an ordained reason; in the ability to seize the moment and come up with creative solutions(like sending Frodo to the fire--only someone with extreme faith would have done that) and so on.

Your interpretation is fascinating; and, within the translator's conceit, makes some sense; but there are other interpretations.

Also, regarding the "ten men a day" thing needed for feeding orcs...I don't agree. He did not have to feed them man-flesh every ten days...It could have only been on holidays. I would also say, that perhaps mans-flesh was something that Orcs LOVED like a drug; in which case, Saruman might have given them just a taste and promised them more once victory was at hand. In which case, he would have needed to feed them much less than 230 kgs a year...Maybe only 230 kgs a year...Also, whenever they went on a raid, (say before the eoreds started fighting them at the Fords) as long as they found some farmers or something, they would get a little mansflesh as a bit of a "reward"--their spoils, so to speak. (But never enough, never enough) Yum.

(i know the idea is horrid, but I think the Orcs ARE horrid and Tolkien plays it down, actually.)

[mhagain]

Yup, I'd always viewed being given man flesh was a special thing, a reward. I don't have the book to hand, but am pretty sure that "we ain't had nothin' but maggoty bread for three stinking days" has at least an equivalent in it. A clear case of Uruks not having an exclusive diet.

If Saruman had been outed earlier, I'm pretty sure he would have dug himself well into Isengard. Only the Ents it seems were fully capable of actually doing anything, and even then they couldn't get him out of the place. It would have likely ended up as a protracted siege with resources tied up in keeping an eye on him. There would have been no Helms Deep, no Ride of the Rohirrim, and Gondor would have likely fallen. By the time the White Council were really aware that the Necromancer was Sauron returned, he was already strong enough to move back to Barad Dur. And I think he would have been quite happy to leave Saruman stew - tying up resources in the west was the objective, and doing so would have had the same end result.

[Kuruharan]

I don't have the book to hand, but am pretty sure that "we ain't had nothin' but maggoty bread for three stinking days" has at least an equivalent in it. A clear case of Uruks not having an exclusive diet.

You are probably thinking of the orc throwing Pippin the stale bread and strip of meat.

This actually speaks favorably of the orcs supply capacity because you'd have to think that they would not be generous with food to prisoners, but they gave the prisoners both bread and meat.

[Legolas]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This actually speaks favorably of the orcs supply capacity because you'd have to think that they would not be generous with food to prisoners, but they gave the prisoners both bread and meat.

To be fair, these are not typical prisoners - they are the short fellows the orcs were sent to capture. Their health was a priority. They were ordered to keep them alive for Saruman; feeding them was probably done with that in mind. This order is alluded to throughout Book 3 Chapter 3 "The Uruk-Hai." The last quote is maybe the most telling.

'Very well,' said Uglúk. 'Leave them to me then! No killing, as I've told you before; but if you want to throw away what we've come all the way to get, throw it away! I'll look after it. Let the fighting Uruk-hai do the work, as usual.'

'I've returned to see that Orders are carried out and the prisoners safe,' answered Grishnákh.
'Indeed!' said Uglúk. 'Waste of effort. I'll see that orders are carried out in my command. And what else did you come back for? You went in a hurry. Did you leave anything behind?'
'I left a fool,' snarled Grishnákh. 'But there were some stout fellows with him that are too good to lose. I knew you'd lead them into a mess. I've come to help them.'

'[...] Oh dear no! What do you think you've been kept alive for? My dear little fellows, please believe me when I say that it was not out of kindness: that's not even one of Uglúk's faults.' (Grishnákh)

[The Sixth Wizard]

I think I'll go back a bit here...

But the Sauron that we read from the chapters of Akallabeth, the Rings of Power and Lord of The Rings was far from a slave creature of the senses and unbridled chaos. He was immensely cunning, devious, patience, thoughful and above all never lost sight of his ultimate aim. He was as I would submit, a master strategist of the art of maneuver

You speak of Sauron the Deciever as he is in Numenor. But Tolkien speaks at the start of the Silmarillion about the three stages of evil, rise, fall and the machine.

In terms of Morgoth, the rise is the will to make the world a place for him to govern, at first with good intentions, but nevertheless to make how he wants it. Th fall of Morgoth is when he descends into evil by decieving the Valar to have the world to himself. His Machine is where he is so obsessed with killing or corrupting the Children of Iluvatar, he expends his spirit in the twisting of good and the domination of Arda, and destroys himself from within.

In terms of Sauron, the rise (this is after he repents of his evil deeds at Angband) is when he helps to create the first Rings, and gains the friendship of the Elves. Then he creates the One Ring, and his Fall involves trying to decieve the elves and the Numenoreans. I see it that the Fall stage is still deceptive, not quite complete evil. By the time he returns to Mordor he has entered the Machine stage, openly declaring war, like Saruman openly declares war upon Rohan. So once evil has entered the Machine stage, it weakens the deception and this leads to their downfall (Saruman can no longer decieve Gandalf because of his open war).

So Sauron is no longer such a mean, lying character as he is in Akkalabeth because he is the Dark Lord. He has surrendered somewhat to the blind madness of evil, and so he is decieved at the Black Gate in his rush to destroy Aragorn, and doesn't heed the trap. Gandalf says that Sauron would never expect the Ring to go to Mordor, because he cannot percieve that Aragorn would not take the Ring for himself. Thus evil will always destroy itself by the very nature of evil.

Cool eh? And of course Gandalf would never lie, that is the beginning of the Fall!

By the way Saruman would never get away with trafficking Easterlings over from the East, way too difficult. Just use wolves to pillage everything between Isengard and the Shire instead, I'd think.

[Kuruharan]

To be fair, these are not typical prisoners - they are the short fellows the orcs were sent to capture.

True, but it still reflects favorably on their supply system.