Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[mhagain]

What I found interesting, and what doesn't appear to have been picked up on (although admittedly I couldn't bear to read the whole thread) was the quote "With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished".

The key point here is the difference between "fell" and "plunged".

What we have is a shadow like wings, which seems to be detachable from the main body of the Balrog. Remember, here the Balrog is only beginning to fall forward, whereas the shadow is already well down into the depths.

So I voted "no".

Wings, definitely not.

Jetpacks, now that's a "maybe"...

[Finduilas]

Tolkien is a writer, and a very good writer, too. He started with

His shadow stretched like wings

for his description of this new creature he was introducing. When you first explain a new character you stick with your description or follow it up with something like, "His shadow which had appeared as wings were then shown to be real wings."

Also, if I am not mistaken, the chasm which Gandalf and the Balrog fell into was HUGE. If the Balrog had wings he would have flown up there, instead of falling. If you argue that the chasm wasn't large enough, then when Gandalf was killing him on top of the mountain, why didn't he see he was loosing and fly away?

You could say that he had wings, but couldn't fly, but no writer puts wings on a creature just for looks, and then forget to say that he has wings just for looks.

We should look at what Tolkien wrote, not what we think he meant. If we do, Balrogs don't have wings.

--Fin--

[Raynor]

"What a day for a daydream..."

Originally Posted by Finduilas

If the Balrog had wings he would have flown up there, instead of falling.
...
If you argue that the chasm wasn't large enough, then when Gandalf was killing him on top of the mountain, why didn't he see he was loosing and fly away?

In normal circumstances, yes. Those times, however, he was fighting a wizard, whose power matched, at in the beginning, even that of Sauron, cf. Unfinished Tales. Thus, he may not have had the chance to get away from Gandalf, or Gandalf intentionally prevented that.

[Finduilas]

Okay, so that is a possibility(sp). But what do you say to my other arguements?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Okay, so that is a possibility(sp). But what do you say to my other arguements?

I believe they rest more on consideration of style rather than 'evidence'. Since this is more subjective, I would refrain from commenting on that, since it is not my field.

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I believe they rest more on consideration of style rather than 'evidence'. Since this is more subjective, I would refrain from commenting on that, since it is not my field.

As far as I have been able to tell, there is no evidence either way, and I think that looking at style would be the best way of doing it. Since Tolkien doesn't state it either way straight out, logic is the only way to "prove" anything.

--Fin--

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Since Tolkien doesn't state it either way straight out, logic is the only way to "prove" anything.

In the tussle between logic and my mind's eye, the latter wins out every time.

Hence, Balrogs have fully functioning, albeit rather shadowy and unwieldy, wings.

[Alphaelin]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Jetpacks, now that's a "maybe"...

Or maybe propellers.

I think it's clear that Balrogs gave the impression of winged creatures(Underhill's thing with Gimli thinking the flying creature was a Balrog and Frodo stating otherwise).

That's all,

and for the record I didn't vote.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by darkcorsair

I think it's clear that Balrogs gave the impression of winged creatures(Underhill's thing with Gimli thinking the flying creature was a Balrog and Frodo stating otherwise).

Interesting note, though, it does not help the real matter...

Because we all know that Balrogs gave the impression of winged creatures. The point is, if it was mere impression, or real wings...

[ElentariGreenleaf]

Well, ok, valid point about Tolkien not creating something with wings that can't fly.

Maybe they could originally fly, but over time they lost the use of their wings. I mean from their age, not through de-evolution. I mean, that Balrog that Gandalf blocked in Moria must have been ancient. I always imagine Balrogs to have wings like bats, so perhaps when a Balrog gets old the membranes start to get brittle and break so they can't fly any more. Either that, or all that fire eventually burns them away, lol. Though, were they fiery in the book? Its been so long since I've read it ^^;

Because we all know that Balrogs gave the impression of winged creatures. The point is, if it was mere impression, or real wings...

Hmm, perhaps Balrog's don't actually have wings, but perhaps something on their backs that look very much like wings. Possibly some kind of defence from attack? I mean, some Butterflys' wings have false eyes on them for their predators will attack their wings and not their body. Perhaps Balrogs "wings" were not meant for flying but as a distraction for an attacker? An intelligent attacker would perhaps try to disable wings to stop the target from flying off.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by ElentariGreenleaf

Maybe they could originally fly, but over time they lost the use of their wings. I mean from their age, not through de-evolution.

If anything, I would likely imagine them losing their wings because of their turning to evil, like for example Sauron or Morgoth lost the abilities to appear in different shapes later then.

Originally Posted by ElentariGreenleaf

I mean, that Balrog that Gandalf blocked in Moria must have been ancient. I always imagine Balrogs to have wings like bats, so perhaps when a Balrog gets old the membranes start to get brittle and break so they can't fly any more. Either that, or all that fire eventually burns them away, lol. Though, were they fiery in the book? Its been so long since I've read it ^^;

The wings were not fiery, but shadowy:

...and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings...

Originally Posted by ElentariGreenleaf

Hmm, perhaps Balrog's don't actually have wings, but perhaps something on their backs that look very much like wings. Possibly some kind of defence from attack? I mean, some Butterflys' wings have false eyes on them for their predators will attack their wings and not their body. Perhaps Balrogs "wings" were not meant for flying but as a distraction for an attacker? An intelligent attacker would perhaps try to disable wings to stop the target from flying off.

It's an interesting opinion, though I believe it was mentioned here by some as a possibility - but I find the idea of wings providing "distraction" quite inventive.

[Folwren]

Boromir...I am utterly confused. Didn't you vote that Balrog's do have wings? And yet you seem to speak for those of us who think they don't... It it's an attempt at sarcasm, it's not working.

-- Folwren

[Boromir88]

Hmm, perhaps Balrog's don't actually have wings, but perhaps something on their backs that look very much like wings.~Elentari

The problem with this is the Balrog is described as being 'man-shaped'. Something that is 'man-shaped' means it's form is that of a man's. I don't think something that is man-shaped would have bat wings (or something of that sort) coming out of his back. Just like if something was 'man-shaped' I wouldn't picture a 40-foot horned, and hooved, demon thing like Jackson portrays.

On top of that Durin's Bane was described as 'man-sized' and something man-sized simply wouldn't be able to have wings that when fully spread out reached to a 100 feet...but now I'm getting into repeating myself and so I'll just say this.

A lot of people think there is ambiguity and mystery surrounding the Balrog. They think nothing is known for certain and they're one giant enigma. That's not really true at all, I mean we're not dealing with Tom Bombadil here who Tolkien purposefully left as an enigma. Tolkien gave us a lot of information on his Balrogs, you just have to look for it, it's right there in the text. And I think the only reason people think there is a 'debate' over Balrog's is because of the movies and artists; who when looking at the text are not really even close to being accurate. As artists, and movie-makers are interested in selling their product, so they want to go for the 'coolest' looking pictures for their audience to make more money...and when you do that you often lose the accuracy. And then the public views these movies and pictures, gets these images stuck in their head and instead of looking at the text from an unbiased view, look at the text with the visualization of these distorted images in their head and try to find only things which support that visualization...like: 'and it's wings were spread from wall to wall.'...and completely disregard any other part of the text that plays a factor in determining whether the wings were merely an impression and metaphorical or were literal wings.

Don't get me wrong, because I don't want to sound mean or arrogant, but in most cases that's how it is.

I'll leave you with this...Here is a wonderful description Tolkien gives us of clouds...and it is precisely the same style he uses with Durin's Bane in Moria:

"And out of the west there would come at times a great cloud in the evening, shaped as it were an eagle, with pinions spread to the north and the south; and slowly it would loom up, blotting out the sunset, and then the uttermost night would fall upon Numenor. And some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings, and thunder echoed between sea and cloud."~The Akallabeth

Here Tolkien is describing clouds and he says the clouds were 'shaped as if it were an eagle'...there's the simile. Then he extends that simile to keep that imagery of clouds looking like eagles in the readers mind; with...and some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings.

Did the clouds morph into eagles? No, that's just Tolkien using language to the great extent that he was able to. He sets up the simile of clouds shaped like eagles, then to keep that imagery going he extends it and actually calls the clouds 'eagles.'

Same things happens in Gandalf's confrontation with Durin's Bane:

'...spread out like two vast wings.'

Then one moment later:

'...it's wings were spread from all to wall.'