Why did Gandalf save Faramir?

[Břicho]

Well, I guess I'm going to have to beg to differ.
I think it was more than politics; it was an evil that no one else could have averted but Gandalf. Since there was no one else to save him, Gandalf had to do it. Unlike Theoden or Halbarad, Faramir couldn't defend himself.

Beregond would have gone down sooner or later, and he had already killed men(who were arguably also innocent.) Gandalf was faced with a moral decision: help out in the battle and let an innocent man be murdered; or save Faramir knowing that his efforts would be missed in the battle. The battle was going to happen no matter what and people were going to die; but the "other battle" was maybe a greater evil: it had innocent soldiers killing innocent soldiers, "tangled in a web of conflicting oaths..." And an innocent man about to be murdered because of madness.

[Boromir88]

Bricho and Esty both bring up two good points. As I'm sure it wasn't just for one soul purpose. There were several reasons for Gandalf to save Faramir's life over helping out in battle.

Esty talks about one of them. After Denethor's death Gondor was sucked into a political vaccuum, just imagine what the soldiers had been going through? I mean they see their great captain and Denethor's heir (Faramir) brought into the gates severely wounded. Denethor refuses to step out of his hall and lead him Men as he is asked this very thing:

'The first circle of the City is burning, lord,' they said. 'What are your commands? You are still the Lord and Steward? Not all will follow Minthrandir. Men are flying from the walls and leaving them unmanned.'

'Why? Why do the fools fly?' said Denethor. 'Better to burn sooner than late, for burn we must. Go back to your bonfire! And I? I will go now to my pyre...~The Siege of Gondor

When Denethor showed no intention on stepping out and leading his men Gandalf assumed command of the City. When Gandalf had to later attend other business he places Imrahil in charge. Then after the battle, after Denethor's death, Faramir is the Steward of the City, but he's still sick and is in no health to rule, so again Imrahil is given temporary Stewardship until Faramir is better.

So there were definitely political reasons, as Denethor's death (and even before his death as he refused to provide leadership), caused a big political vaccuum in Gondor. For Faramir to die along with him would be even a bigger vaccuum.

Despite all that, I agree with Bricho that it wasn't all about politics. First I'd like to say it's not that Gandalf chose Faramir over Theoden...Gandalf had no clue Theoden was going to die...he just knew if he saved Faramir than many more would also die. But we're talking about a war here, many more are already dying. At least everyone in War expect that they may not make it through. With Faramir's life on the line, Denethor had no right to take it. Here's what Denethor says about him burning himself and Faramir:

'To my pyre! No tomb for Denethor and Faramir. No tomb! No long slow sleep of death embalmed. We will burn like the heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West. The West has failed. Go back and burn!'~The Siege of Gondor

Now we aren't sure exactly who Denethor is talking about here as the 'heathen kings.' But as silly as a concept as it sounds, the Numenorean Kings had the power to command their own day of death. They were allowed willingly to decide when they wanted to die (as we see Aragorn does). According to Denethor he has this right to command when he dies, as well as when Faramir dies, but as Gandalf points out he does not:

'Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,' answered Gandalf. 'And only the heathen kings, under teh domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.'~The Pyre of Denethor

Here we see heathen kings again, and according to Gandalf these were King's under the 'Dark Power' who committed murder. Therefor, this is not Denethor rightfully ordering the hour of his own death and taking that of his sons. This is Denethor, who has no authority to order when he dies, and certainly no authority to commit murder.

Just as a point of interest, Gandalf says the heathen Kings slew themselves and their sons in 'pride and despair,'...hmm it's interesting that Tolkien applies these two words to Denethor:

Thus pride increased in Denethor together with despair...~Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion; The Stewards

Not only was it political, but I think Gandalf thinks of it as a moral obligation. Gandalf, I've always seen as the top of the moral ladder, he is the one that is there to point people in the right direction when they go astray. As some examples, when Frodo wishes Bilbo killed Gollum, Gandalf instructs Frodo about the importance of Pity and Mercy. It is that very Pity and Mercy that made the quest succeed and Frodo's life was spared. When Aragorn proudly goes up to the hall of Theoden and tells Hama he is Elendil's heir and he should have power over Theoden's orders. Gandalf holds Aragorn and tells him a King will have his own way in his own hall. So Gandalf has always been also this figure of justice, and this moral compass. Therefor, I believe Gandalf found it his moral obligation to try to save a life that was about to be wrongfully taken, over those who had through free will gone into battle.

[MatthewM]

I like what Bricho has to say here. I think the decision was more than political. We know that Gandalf had a teacher-student relationship with Faramir, and we know that the two knew eachother. Gandalf most likely wouldn't have been able to deal with knowing he could have saved Gondor's last Steward, a friend, a man well beyond his years in wisdom.

Gandalf probably thought that the battle would indeed need his aid, but, I'm going to say Gandalf understood the concept of fate, and what was supposed to happen would eventually unfold. Gandalf had faith. The only choice was to save Faramir from the madness of his father.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Don't you think there's also the, slightly uncomfortable, notion of Gandalf believing Faramir was worth more than 'normal' men?

Gandalf knew Faramir; he didn't know the nameless soldiers. Gandalf knew that Faramir was a brilliant man; he could only suppose that the nameless soldiers were good men though, equally, he probably supposed that they were not as special as Faramir.

It's a classic moral dilemma. I'm not going to judge on it (yet ) but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Gandalf's decision was to do with judging the lives of some as lesser or greater than others.

[Guinevere]

Well, already when Denethor sends Faramir out on the hopeless errand to hold the passage through Osgiliath against the enemy, Gandalf tells him:

"Do not throw you life away rashly or in bitterness." "You will be needed here for other things than war."

So he clearly thought, that Faramir was important for Gondor. He is not only noble (Somewhere it is stated that "the blood of Numenor runs more true in him than in Denethor or Boromir" but I can't find the quote right now.) but he is also wise and compassionate, and the people of Minas Tirith love him.

And, like Bricho said, Gandalf was the only one who could save Faramir.

Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

So he clearly thought, that Faramir was important for Gondor. He is not only noble (Somewhere it is stated that "the blood of Numenor runs more true in him than in Denethor or Boromir" but I can't find the quote right now.) but he is also wise and compassionate, and the people of Minas Tirith love him.

I don't have the quote handy, but I'm almost positive that Denethor was not included in Tolkien saying that, I believe it was just Boromir it did not run "truly" in...which I always found to be rather annoying, bias, and selective...not to mention almost hereditarily impossible.

[Son of Númenor]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Don't you think there's also the, slightly uncomfortable, notion of Gandalf believing Faramir was worth more than 'normal' men?

Gandalf knew Faramir; he didn't know the nameless soldiers. Gandalf knew that Faramir was a brilliant man; he could only suppose that the nameless soldiers were good men though, equally, he probably supposed that they were not as special as Faramir.

It's a classic moral dilemma. I'm not going to judge on it (yet ) but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Gandalf's decision was to do with judging the lives of some as lesser or greater than others.

The dilemma is not moral, really. Gandalf was not sent to Middle-earth to save anyone - he willingly sacrificed the lives of thousands of men.

Why? He was doing his service to Eru - he was doing his dharma.

I see a parallel between this and the tale of Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita - Arjuna is told by Krishna that he must do selfless service in the name of God, guided by Compassion - yet Krishna is telling him this as he prepares to slaughter his enemies in an epic battle.

It was for his own benefit that he led the characters of tLotR into battle - yet he acted solely out of Compassion.

I see this as frankly trans-moral. His impetus was Divine Purpose, and it does not matter at all to the story that his victory over Sauron was at the expense of the lives of characters in a musical composition.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

To be a, no doubt very basic, Devil's advocate, isn't there conflict between means and ends here? Great atrocities have been carried out in the pursuit of a higher purpose. Or is it just that Eru decides what is moral and what is not?

Maybe then Gandalf's decision was not a moral one, but there's the added bonus in the story of the author postulating a god. In non-fiction at least it's a classic moral dilemma, but it could lose something in adaptation.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

To be a, no doubt very basic, Devil's advocate, isn't there conflict between means and ends here? Great atrocities have been carried out in the pursuit of a higher purpose. Or is it just that Eru decides what is moral and what is not?

Maybe then Gandalf's decision was not a moral one, but there's the added bonus in the story of the author postulating a god. In non-fiction at least it's a classic moral dilemma, but it could lose something in adaptation.

Can you explain what you're saying here? I don't understand what you're getting at...

[Son of Númenor]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

To be a, no doubt very basic, Devil's advocate, isn't there conflict between means and ends here? Great atrocities have been carried out in the pursuit of a higher purpose. Or is it just that Eru decides what is moral and what is not?

Maybe then Gandalf's decision was not a moral one, but there's the added bonus in the story of the author postulating a god. In non-fiction at least it's a classic moral dilemma, but it could lose something in adaptation.

I think the problem here is that you cannot look at The Lord of the Rings as the Arda cosmology.

Tolkien labored his entire career over the Arda cosmology; The Lord of the Rings represented one phase of his literary career.

Eru does not exist in the Lord of the Rings.

I was wrong in saying that the Lord of the Rings is trans-moral. In fact, the morality behind the Lord of the Rings is of a staunchly Catholic variety: a moral battle taking place on a plane on which Deity does not exist; there are, however, three 'transcendental' figures who impose themselves on the narrative: Gandalf, Wisdom; Sauron, Corruption; and Saruman, Wisdom Corrupted.

Then there is the Hobbit: there is no Deity and only a vague allusion to Transcendental force - though there is magic of a childlike variety, to be sure.

Then there is the Silmarillion: it is this piece which is trans-moral, as it presents to us the paradox of Evil as an Illusion which God caused to be.

Gandalf is the link between Trans-Morality and Childhood Faerie Tale: he saves Faramir as a moral act on the earthly plane which exists between the two, because he alone knows the trans-moral implications of sacrificing the lives of others.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

The dilemma is not moral, really. Gandalf was not sent to Middle-earth to save anyone - he willingly sacrificed the lives of thousands of men.

Why? He was doing his service to Eru - he was doing his dharma.

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

Eru does not exist in the Lord of the Rings.

You're contradicting yourself, SoN, if I understand this correctly. In LotR Gandalf is doing his service to Eru, who does not exist in the book? You can't possibly mean Eru exist in between the lines, since you reject that theory too. What can you possibly be aiming at?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

You gotta lay off that palm fenny, Son!