Book III Questions

[willkill4food]

I have a few questions after I read book III of The Two Towers last night for I dont know how many times, but everytime I read it I pick up new things and it makes more sense, otherwise I wouldn't read it so many times.

Was the reason that Gandalf said "yes, Gandalf, that is what I was once called" Is that he was in an alternate time with Illuvatar? Was he gone for a month in middle-earth, but gone for much longer when he was sent back and returned as Gandalf the White.

Also, it seemed to me that gandalf is more elvish. I think it was Sam that said that alves are merry yet sorrow filed, whcih really describes Gandalf when he is talking to merry and Pippin..Is this because he left middle earth and went to Illuvatar? Or is it just because Saruman was defeated?

How did fangorn know that gandalf was to return, or did he just feel it in his gut? (do ents have guts? Anyone ever performed and autopsy on one?)

I am still confused about the battle of Helm's Deep, but I hope the movie will clear that up (or maybe just confuse me more if they do it wrong!) I always try to picture the battle in my head, but with Helm's deep, I always get confused about where people are in relation to the battle...

Thanks in advance for any answers to the questions..

-willkill

[Galorme]

I think he was just showing off, or attention seeking really. Or maybe Tolkein's conception of it changed. I dont think he forgot about what he used to be called, and he didn't really change much, just got more powerful.

[Legolas]

Before I give my response, it might spoil a little bit for you. The Simarillion still lies ahead of you...there's a whole lot of interesting tales ahead of you, of which this matter doesn't hinge upon. Whatcha think? It really doesn't spoil anything coming up in The Lord of the Rings; just a small bit of information that I wasn't sure you'd like to be fed to you, or if you'd rather read it on your own.

[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Peri]

Well, Gandalf has many mames, I also think he said that because he is kinda like a whole new person, he is now Gandalf the white. The reason I think Gandalf seems to be elf-like is because of his age in relation to the elves. Just like some of the elves, he has seen many things over the years, good and bad. Also I think it is because he is wise and knows the fate of middle earth even after the whole Sauron deal is over. He knows that it is never over. I agree with you onb the Helm's Deep one, it is very difficult for me to picture too.

[Legolas]

Gandalf did not know the fate of Middle-earth. Where does it say that?

[Arwen Imladris]

How did fangorn know that gandalf was to return, or did he just feel it in his gut?

I think that he had already met Gandalf, seen him walking around or something.

[Rhudladion]

I think the main reason Gandalf says that is because he died and came back, and 'Gandalf' isn't his name anymore. He has a new name now. He has remembered things long forgotten. His original name of course is Olorin. He is a Maiar and an Istari so he's not really able to be more "Elf-like". I think he has been "added to" in his death experience and that may be what you notice in him.

[Galorme]

But he still was Gandalf! He never stopped being Gandalf! When he came back he was as much the pointy haired wizard he was before. He said "I have forgotten much i once knew" or something to that effect. Did he really? And was this effect permanent? Maybe he had a bit of a Dr Spock moment, but got over it in the end.

[Legolas]

I'll go ahead and post the answer I typed up earlier.

'Gandalf,' the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.'

You see, this was not Gandalf's real name.

He is actually an immortal being called a Maia. An angellic-like spirit that was sent to Middle-earth in the form of an old man (just like the other four of the wizards) by the Valar (14 very powerful similar spirits that ruled Arda from Valinor, the place they sail to in the end) to aid the people of Middle-earth in their fight against Sauron. He existed long before Middle-earth was created, and will exist long after its end.

The balrog was a similar being - formerly a Maia. This is why Gandalf tells the Fellowship, "Fly! This is a foe beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way. Fly!" As Peter Jackson pointed out in the movie, swords were of no use there. He and the balrog battled for a long time, and after destroying the balrog, Gandalf's physical incarnation on Middle-earth passed away. His spirit went back to Valinor where the Valar sent him back to fulfill his mission.

You see, the wizards, when sent to Middle-earth, were not allowed to display their full power or use it. The Valar only wanted them to guide the people of Middle-earth - not fight the battle for them.

When they sent Gandalf back, he was allowed to display more of the power he held inside. He was the only one of the five wizards to keep to his mission. It was kind of strange for Gandalf to be sent back and forth, as he appeared differently in Middle-earth. Not that we'll ever be able to understand it exactly, but I imagine that when he was in Valinor or Middle-earth, his time spent in the other probably would've seemed like some alternate reality or another life he had lived until he got used to the land and his form of being again. You would be disoriented too for a little while if you switched back in between two very different lands in which you were presented in such different manners of appearance and ability.

His 'true' name (that is, his original name in Valinor) was Olórin.

He probably seemed more Elvish because of his behavior in Valinor. He was indeed a Maia, but a great elf-friend in Valinor. The Silmarillion says this about Olórin's nature:

for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days [his time as Gandalf, that is] he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.

(text in brackets is mine)

For more information, read The Silmarillion and 'The Istari' chapter of Unfinished Tales.

Treebeard's talk of Gandalf returning was more of an instinct. He did not actually know what I told you about Gandalf. Tolkien even says so...Treebeard is wise in some areas, but he is not Tolkien:

(from Letter No. 153)

Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came (though I do, even if exercising my subcreator's right I have thought it best in this Tale to leave the question a 'mystery', not without pointers to the solution).

[Child of the 7th Age]

Legalos,

Great summary, but with just one important correction. The first time Gandalf was sent to Middle-earth, it was by the Valar. The second time, after he "died", he was sent back by Eru Iluvatar and given an expanded agenda.

Tolkien tells us this in his Letters. The Valar had limited Gandalf in what he could do. His main task was to teach and inspire others to act. Eru expanded his mission so that Gandalf could act directly when the situation warranted. It is likely that Gandalf's powers were the same before and after the Balrog. It was just the instructions to him that changed since Saruman had failed to live up to what he was supposed to do.

sharon

[willkill4food]

I know that he was olorin, but I thought it strange that he had been gone a little more than a week, and yet recalled his name (atleast the one he used for the last hundreds of years) like he had not been called it in ages. The movie answers this by saying that "A day and a month, they were no different to me" or something to that effect..

Also, Gandalf the grey did not seem as Elf-like as gandalf the white. Gandalf the white is mysterious, somewhat cold, and acts merry and sorrow filled at the same time, which Gandalf the Grey was much different..he was more merry, and more down-to-earth..

-willkill

[-Imrahil-]

Yes, Child of the 7th Age is correct about Gandalf being sent with different agendas both times.

[Legolas]

Also, Gandalf the grey did not seem as Elf-like as gandalf the white. Gandalf the white is mysterious, somewhat cold, and acts merry and sorrow filled at the same time, which Gandalf the Grey was much different..he was more merry, and more down-to-earth..

I don't think it was such a change that he seemed like a different person or anything. Nor do I think he was more 'Elvish' in one or the other. If anything, as the Grey, he was more like the elves as they were usually in times of peace. Easy-going and enjoying themselves. Remember all the dancing and drinking they did?

Anyway, the possible end of Middle-earth is coming ever so quickly. The time for war is now. The only reason you've been sent is to lead the opposition - to save the world.

Wouldn't you be more focused, serious and worried at that moment than you were previously?

I believe so.