Matriarchal or Patriarchal societies in ME ???

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Anyway, thinking about it there could be one fully matriarchal society in Middle earth, if it can be viewed as a 'society', that of the spiders. If we are going to look at that as a society then its not the most pleasant one, is it? Maybe this again shows that Tolkien disliked the idea of either a complete patriarchy or matriarchy?

I think that would be reading more into it that Tolkien intended, or is actually there whether he intended it or not. It appears to me that Tolkien decided on spiders for his monsters, and used spider behavior, which happens to be matriarchal.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I must say I find Lobelia far more pleasant that Mrs. Bucket.

Now this seems a more telling point than Lal's above in regard to spiders, for Lobelia means spiderwoman. What's the sense we get from this? That this is a hobbit woman who spins webs of mischief and selfishness and greed, trying to grasp Bag End from the Bagginses. It just so happens that she's a spiderlike woman. Does this mean that Tolkien equated women in general with spiders? No. Did he equate evil or selfish, grasping 'women' with spiders? Yes, in two cases: Lobelia and Shelob.

Originally Posted by Legate

...the women, even if with superior abilities to their male counterparts (also I think it's fine to remember Melian and Galadriel), do not in attempt to seize the power if it was not given to them, even though they'd have the "right" for it because they'd be possibly more fit for the role.

This puts me in mind of European history, particalurly that of the early Merovingian. There was a Merovingian king who was apparently not the sharpest arrow in the quiver, and there was the mayor of the palace, equivalent to a steward, who actually took care of the business of running the kingdom. Eventually the mayor (Pepin the Short) unseated the ruling Merovingian king (with political help from the pope ). The more capable sits behind the throne until the weakness of the ruler becomes so glaring that a combination of ambition and desire to run the kingdom better result in usurpation. It happened over and over throughout the middle ages. What's interesting is that in Tolkien it doesn't happen but rarely.

There are men who could be construed to be wiser than the ruling men, so to call this a necessarily gender issue in Middle Earth is not entirely accurate. The most obvious example of this is the line of Elendil as wise men who are actually of the Numenorean royal line, but advise rather than attempt to unseat the reigning king or queen; at least until they are banished from the king's presence.

Originally Posted by Thinómien

I've always considered Galadriel and Celeborn "equal rulers" meaning they both had as much power as the another had ie. Celeborn was not the official "head of state" any more than Galadriel was.

Their spheres of influence and power are different. Celeborn is ruler of Lorien, and Galadriel is his Lady and advisor. By virtue of her Elven Ring, history, and lineage, she is a member of the White Council, which apparently Celeborn is not. So she may only be second in command in Lorien, but she is politically more powerful than Celeborn in an "international" sense .... as well as in fact of personal power as a High Elf who has seen the face of the gods.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Their spheres of influence and power are different. Celeborn is ruler of Lorien, and Galadriel is his Lady and advisor. By virtue of her Elven Ring, history, and lineage, she is a member of the White Council, which apparently Celeborn is not. So she may only be second in command in Lorien, but she is politically more powerful than Celeborn in an "international" sense .... as well as in fact of personal power as a High Elf who has seen the face of the gods.

I'm not so sure that Celeborn is ruler of Lórien, and Galadriel is not, as you suggest. The case has been made in this thread (Legate's post) that they were equal in their power in Lórien.

That does not mean that there were not two spheres of influence. That Celeborn is the military leader of the two would seem to be undisputed. Celeborn directs the military campaigns against Dol Guldur, and makes the military pact with Thranduil divided the Greenwood after the war. And while I would agree that Galadriel's chief and preferred sphere of influence is on the international scene, I do not think that she is merely Celeborn's advisor and wife. The way they are referred to by the Galadhrim strongly suggests to me that they were a ruling partnership.

Going back to Thingol and Melian, it was another matter in Doriath. To the Sindar, Thingol alone was lord. He was lord of the Teleri before he was lost in Nan Elmoth, and he remains as the only mentioned overlord of Círdan and the Sindar (if memory serves) after the foundation of the realms. Furthermore, the claims of Dior and his sons are always as "Heirs of Elu", never as "Heirs of Thingol and Melian".

Melian, therefore, better fits LMP's description of Galadriel: Lady and Advisor (not always heeded, I might add), and more powerful on the "international" scene. The Kings of the Noldor all defer to Thingol as the sole and chief lord of the Sindar, but notice who actually has the power on the international scene. Melian. Her girdle is what the Noldor and Morgoth are really concerned about. But there is no reason, as I see it, to think that Melian was a fully and complete sovereign of Doriath, as Thingol was.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

The way they are referred to by the Galadhrim strongly suggests to me that they were a ruling partnership.

Both interpretations seem possible from the facts given, but I have no quibble with your interpretation. Perhaps, if you are correct, Galadriel would have it no other way.