Matriarchal or Patriarchal societies in ME ???

[littlemanpoet]

On Galadriel, you can bet that if she had accepted the Ring, there would have been an outright matriarchy ... but not a good one. (Note that I distinguish between "matriarchy" and "evil/bad"; they are not necessarily the same thing. )

Regarding Melian, you are still dealing with a patriarchal society. Thingol was still the one who made the decisions, usually listening and making use of Melian's wise counsel, but not always; and when he failed to take her counsel, his decisions failed.

I find it very interesting and gratifying how Tolkien consistently included wise women as powerful influences for good within patriarchal societies.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by lmp

I find it very interesting and gratifying how Tolkien consistently included wise women as powerful influences for good within patriarchal societies.

Yes, Tolkien certainly did not display any dislike of women as leaders, but his societies are broadly patriarchal - which is not noteworthy of him making any 'point' really, as Western society today remains broadly patriarchal yet women can ascend to the top with a lot of luck and superhuman effort (must insert a here). Tolkien recognised that women too were capable of being inspiring leaders - and inspired capable leaders!

I wonder does he make a 'point' where he shows societies that cannot accept women as their leaders, as in the schemers and plotters of Numenor?

Anyway, thinking about it there could be one fully matriarchal society in Middle earth, if it can be viewed as a 'society', that of the spiders. If we are going to look at that as a society then its not the most pleasant one, is it? Maybe this again shows that Tolkien disliked the idea of either a complete patriarchy or matriarchy? Hmmm...

[Thinlómien]

An interesting thread, but I'm afraid I can't add anything decent. (The only point I had in mind resembled that of Elempí's, who - I must say - said it a lot better than I could ever had and whose point was more comprehensive than mine would have been.)

Originally Posted by Lal

Anyway, thinking about it there could be one fully matriarchal society in Middle earth, if it can be viewed as a 'society', that of the spiders. If we are going to look at that as a society then its not the most pleasant one, is it?

I wonder what the militant, hot-headed-type feminists would say about this...

Originally Posted by Lal

Anyone in the UK will know what I mean if I raise the name of Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced Bouquet).

You don't even have to be in UK to know her... I must say I find Lobelia far more pleasant that Mrs. Bucket.

Originally Posted by Lal

Maybe this again shows that Tolkien disliked the idea of either a complete patriarchy or matriarchy? Hmmm...

I'm sure there was/must be at least one complete patriarchy that wasn't too horrible, but I just can't get what it was.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm sure there was/must be at least one complete patriarchy that wasn't too horrible, but I just can't get what it was.

I'm not quite sure. Tolkien, I think, shows most of the "good" societies standing on the balance and harmony between the male and female, be it king and queen or something else. We are shown societies where the woman (queen or something like that) is not treated just like something inferior, but uses her abilities to good advice and to step in when the male ruler loses his temper (Thingol for example - not that this always works; but also in the case of Celeborn when he is about to offend Gimli for the dwarves' awakening of balrog). On the other hand, the balance stands on that the women, even if with superior abilities to their male counterparts (also I think it's fine to remember Melian and Galadriel), do not in attempt to seize the power if it was not given to them, even though they'd have the "right" for it because they'd be possibly more fit for the role.

Originally Posted by The Might

Even Melian could be probably considered a matriarch, Thingol might have been king, but everyone knows who really was the boss in Doriath and who kept it safe.

I used this quote to compare with what I have just said above. Melian never wanted to be seen as the matriarch - meaning the first ruler - of Doriath. Thingol was the king, all the power and all the right and law was in his hands. But Melian didn't lose anything - I think she has only gained, as well as the mentioned Galadriel. They didn't become downtrodden, they were treated with most respect - on the other hand, for example all the usurper kings of Númenor (Ar-Pharazon being the most significant example I think) ended wrong.
So, in general: Tolkien shows the exclusively patriarchal and/or matriarchal societies in ME as something which is not generally common, and also it's not much, let's say, healthy. This however might accord with the overall concept of power in ME as being the most dangerous thing if misused without control.

I wonder now, what do we assign to the moments, when at the beginning of the War of the Ring the two societies most relied upon by the Free peoples - Gondor and Rohan - both have only a weary male ruler who is broken and has lost his female counterpart... a sign of the old, dying age when the new must come?

[Thinlómien]

Legate (and others maybe too) are you saying that Celeborn had more official power than Galadriel the same way Thingol had more offical power than Melian. I've always considered Galadriel and Celeborn "equal rulers" meaning they both had as much power as the another had ie. Celeborn was not the official "head of state" any more than Galadriel was. I'm wondering why do we have different views about the matter and which one is correct.

[Lalaith]

It could be argued that peoples or tribes who take their names from their female rulers can be classified as matriarchies. The People of Haleth being a case in point. It wasn't just Haleth herself who fought but also other women, too. The Galadhrim...were they named after Galadriel or is another etymological origin?

I would also say that Numenor always sounded about as patriarchal a society as you can get, to me. Even after the law was changed, the queens were mostly rather diffident and lacklustre....more along the lines of Anne than Elizabeth I, to take a real-life analogy.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

The Galadhrim...were they named after Galadriel or is another etymological origin?

I found this from the Silmarillion's appendices:

kal- (gal-) This root, meaning "shine" appears in Calacirya, Calaquendi, Tar-calion, galvorn, Gil-galad, Galadriel. The last two names have no conncetion with Sindarin galadh "tree", although in the case of Galadriel such a connexion was often made, and the name altered to Galadhriel. In the High-elven speech her name was Al(a)táriel, derived from alata "radiance" (Sindarin galad) and riel "garlanded maiden" (from a root rig- "twine, wreathe"): the whole meaning "maiden crowned with a radiant garland", referring to her hair . . .

So, the galadhrim were named after galadh "tree" and Galadriel after galad "radiance" and all was just coincidence...

Or was it?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Celeborn was not the official "head of state" any more than Galadriel was. I'm wondering why do we have different views about the matter and which one is correct.

Well, one thing is, because it was Celeborn, not Galadriel, who represented Lórien in the "outside disputations", as much as the head of the state. We read for example in the Appendixes to LotR, that after the War of the Ring, Celeborn goes out and destroys Dol Guldur and then - the main part - he makes "diplomatic talks" with Thranduil and they divide the Greenwood.
But to be correct, the "head of state" was actually neither of them. In Unfinished Tales, "The history of Galadriel and Celeborn" we are told, that

There they dwelt while the Third Age lasted, but they took no title of King or Queen; for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm, the last eastward outpost of the Elves.

But nevertheless, Haldir (and others) take them as their rulers, for our purposes we might think that "Lord and Lady" mean the same as "King and Queen".
In the LotR, all the way from the borders of Lórien to Caras Galadhon, C&G are referred to only together:

'Now you have come thus far, you must be brought before the Lord and the Lady. They shall judge you, to hold you or to give you leave, as they will.'...

'...though the Lord and Lady may know, I do not.'...

...'they bring me a message from the Lord and Lady of the Galadhrim.'...

...'Here is the city of the Galadhrim where dwell the Lord Celeborn and Galadriel the Lady of Lórien.'...

(emphasise mine)
But from then on, when the Fellowship comes before the Lord and the Lady, it is Celeborn who speaks, not Galadriel. Galadriel is the "second voice": I am not saying that she is less important than Celeborn, but that she is something like Melian was: Thingol was speaking and Melian interfered only when she had something to add. Thingol was the one who was first speaking with the outsiders, Beren, the dwarves, whatever. So is Celeborn. Galadriel interferes only when she has something to add. Of course, in the matters she feels important, she acts on her own account - but somehow I get the feeling that the peek into the Mirror is not an "official" thing. And also, when giving the gifts to the Fellowship, Galadriel says "these are the gifts which the Lord and Lady of Lórien offer to you". And few times before, she speaks about - or even to - Celeborn like this:

For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth,
and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings.

Says Galadriel. I don't know, somehow I get the feeling that she's treating him with respect... you know, like if they were equal, but Galadriel behaves the way that she treats him as an authority over herself. Yeah, now I think I happened to sum very well what I wanted to explain. The female counterparts of the rulers have the same power, but they willingly treat their husbands as greater authority. Yeah, that's what I had in mind, I hope you understand now what I meant, Lommy.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

The Galadhrim...were they named after Galadriel or is another etymological origin?

Nope, there is something very long written about it in the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in the Unfinished Tales, Appendix E, "The names of Celeborn and Galadriel". The main thing is, that Galadriel's name comes from the word "galad" like in "Gil-Galad" (Starlight, "galad" meaning "light" here) whilst the name of the Silvan Elves Galadhrim comes from the word "galadh" - a "tree", and they called themselves Galadhrim long before C&G even first came there. To extend this, just one quote.

On occasional confusion of Galadriel's name with the word galadh my father wrote:

When Celeborn and Galadriel became the rulers of the Elves of the Lórien (who were mainly in origin Silvan Elves and called themselves the Galadhrim) the name of Galadriel became associated with trees, an association that was aided by the name of her husband, which also appeared to contain a tree-word; so that outside Lórien among those whose memories of the ancient days and Galadriel's history had grown dim her name was often altered to Galadhriel. Not in Lórien itself.

[Lalaith]

Ah, thank you, Legate and Lommy. I remembered I'd read something about that whole business, somewhere, but couldn't remember what, if you see what I mean....

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I would also say that Numenor always sounded about as patriarchal a society as you can get, to me. Even after the law was changed, the queens were mostly rather diffident and lacklustre....more along the lines of Anne than Elizabeth I, to take a real-life analogy.

Interesting point in an interesting thread. Lalaith's mention of Anne and Elizabeth reminds me of a folk saying common during Tudor times, that when the throne fell to a female, bad times were portended. This was a social attitude which Elizabeth I constantly had to face and work with, if I recall my history correctly. Whenever I have read over the Numenorian kings I recall this attitude and wonder if there isn't something applicable to Numenor here.

[The Might]

Very interesting posts, and also very interesting quotes

I liked the point made about the spiders being the perhaps only entirely matriarchal society, and I believe this is quite possible

As far as Easterling or Southron communities are concerned I am quite sure that they have a fully patriarchal society. Because of a less developed society I would expect that womed had less rights in the east and south then in the more advanced north-west part of Middle-earth.
The same would go in my opinion for others such as the Beornings, the Woodmen, the Woses or the Lossoth.

Varda however seems to be viewed as a type of matriarch by Elves and worshiped for kindling the stars in the sky.