LotR3-RotK-Seq17

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Yep, right on, no question the Dead had to be at Minas Tirith. Non-negotiable. Unfortunately, the result is that it makes all the previous fighting by the Rohirrim seem inconsequential. The question is, is it in fact inconsequential? One might argue that the city would have been completely taken and razed before 'Gorn and the Dead showed up, had Rohan not been there. But do you guys buy that?

[Essex]

well.......movie wise without the the rohirrim we wouldn't have:

1/ no 'fight' between WK and Gandalf
2/ WK dead

which would have made a vast difference to the rest of the story!

Also, yes it could be that the city would have been ransacked and aragorn and co would have been there just to stop the orcs "spoiling" the dead bodies of the Men of Gondor. Much like what the book herald said to Theoden when told how long it might take the Rohirrim to get down to Minas Tirith (you know, that guy with the arrow)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

Yep, right on, no question the Dead had to be at Minas Tirith. Non-negotiable. Unfortunately, the result is that it makes all the previous fighting by the Rohirrim seem inconsequential. The question is, is it in fact inconsequential? One might argue that the city would have been completely taken and razed before 'Gorn and the Dead showed up, had Rohan not been there. But do you guys buy that?

What I don't like (here we go again...) is that at least in the books I can see a reason that the Army of the Dead not being effective in Mordor. Caught between the ghosts and Sauron, the orcs would still attack the Lords of the West. In the movies, there seems to be nothing that can stop the AotD, and so why Aragorn dispels them before cleaning Middle Earth of ALL enemies is beyond me.

If we saw rowers in chains on the pirate ships - PJ in character could even lash them once or twice - we could continue the seen as viewed, then later, when the Black Ships reach Minas Tirith, not only could the AotD de-boat, but others besides our three heroes could join the fight as well. This would show that Aragorn is a leader of men. The Dead could scare the orcs into making stupid decisions - shooting each other, driving mumakil into siege towers, etc - and the newly arrived Rohirrim and heroes/rowers could catch the enemy between hammer and anvil. To simplify things, this could happen as the Witch-King was about to ride into the City. He, of course, could turn back to help with the newcomers, and a few assorted orcs and trolls could enter just to make PJ's point. A clever writer still could give us a rollercoaster ride with the same end, yet have the Dead play less of a part.

From my keyboard to Eru's ear.

[The Saucepan Man]

I believe that, in the book, the Dead were bound by their oath only to fight one battle and so Aragron was bound to discharge them after that battle, so the film followed the book in this regard save that the Dead's battle was at Pelennor rather than Pelargir.

And what difference does it make whether the battle is won by men led by Aragorn or the Dead Army brought by Aragorn by virtue of his line? Either way, it is Aragorn's arrival which saves the day. there is enough elsewhere in the film to show him as a leader of men.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I believe that, in the book, the Dead were bound by their oath only to fight one battle and so Aragron was bound to discharge them after that battle, so the film followed the book in this regard save that the Dead's battle was at Pelennor rather than Pelargir.

Don't remember that, but that's not saying much. Did Aragorn dispel them because he needed them only to gain a human army and to defeat the Pirates of Pelargir, and saw no use for them afterwards - as the idea of riding out to Mordor wasn't yet in his head?

And what difference does it make whether the battle is won by men led by Aragorn or the Dead Army brought by Aragorn by virtue of his line? Either way, it is Aragorn's arrival which saves the day. there is enough elsewhere in the film to show him as a leader of men.

Sorry, but I cannot be so blasé about a change that could tear apart the very fabric of space-time itself. Concurrent with the release of RotK, in which the green slime save the day, I noted these two events. Coincidence? Methinks not.

• Solar activity reaches new high

• Beagle 2 lost

Surely 'who wins the battle' is a personal preference. I would note that the elves help at Helm's Deep but do not win the battle for Men. They play their part, Eloi to the Uruks' Morlocks, but it's Aragorn and Theoden and that other guy who we see for about 5 minutes that turn the battle. Even Treebeard's trees only provide recycling services.

The Dead in the movie make the battle too clean and convenient. I still wonder why Aragorn even bothers; in the books he has to fight just like everyone else.

Quibble.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I think releasing the Dead is the honorable thing to do; maybe not the most strategic, but the most honorable. In the book, it never specifically says that they agreed to fight for Isildur in only one battle, but it does seem to me to be implied that that was their commitment.

I understand your point, alatar, that the Dead aren't as powerful in the book and thus they wouldn't be as much of a guarantee of success, but does this really make a difference? Doubtless they would have at the least helped at Pelennor Fields, or at Morannon.

Of course, I think one of the reasons Aragorn dismissed the Dead at Pelargir was that he couldn't transport both them and the living up Anduin in the ships of the Corsairs; for the Dead breed terror among the good guys as much as the bad. And even though their terror isn't emphasized in the film, isn't this a valid point that might also make it disadvantageous to keep them around?

Ultimately, as the King of the Dead points out, "You gave us your word." And he did. It was merely to "fight for us," but they fulfilled their oath nonetheless and deserved to be set free.

[Essex]

and to add to this, as I've said before, to be 'pure' to the books (actually no not even that) we'd need the Dead to fight at Pelagir - and therefore have another 15 mins added on with a fight scene and 15 minutes cut off the film elsewhere.

What I mean by staying pure to the books is that we'd have to have a flashback after the battle explaining to us what happened at Pelagir. This would not work movie wise either

so all in all I can put up with the "green slime" mopping up the baddies throughout the city, and also taking a mumakil or two down.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

I think releasing the Dead is the honorable thing to do; maybe not the most strategic, but the most honorable. In the book, it never specifically says that they agreed to fight for Isildur in only one battle, but it does seem to me to be implied that that was their commitment.

I'm with you, but then again, the King of the Dead did mess with Aragorn a bit - all of those skulls - and so a little turnabout...and remember, this is the same Aragorn that kills the Mouth of Sauron. In PJ's world, from what I remember, there's no statement as to the Dead's commitment. Was that the point of the Stone of Erech, in the books, to hammer out the contractual details?

Of course, I think one of the reasons Aragorn dismissed the Dead at Pelargir was that he couldn't transport both them and the living up Anduin in the ships of the Corsairs; for the Dead breed terror among the good guys as much as the bad. And even though their terror isn't emphasized in the film, isn't this a valid point that might also make it disadvantageous to keep them around?

The Dead were able to follow regardless of terrain or the speed at which Aragorn and company traveled. I assume that they would have been able to follow up the Anduin as well, with boats or not, as they were able to terrorize the sailors on said boats without the use of smaller boats to get there. I do understand that the Dead scare everyone, and so there's a reason to dismiss them sooner than later. In the movie, when are they sent away? Is this after the night when Pip looks for Merry and Aragorn heals those that he can? Can't remember.

Ultimately, as the King of the Dead points out, "You gave us your word." And he did. It was merely to "fight for us," but they fulfilled their oath nonetheless and deserved to be set free.

See reference to dead MoS above.

[Essex]

we will be arguing about the Mouth of Sauron very shortly. Suffice to say that no word or bond, im my point of view, was broken. movie MoS was not an emissary and neither did he ask for parly. but lets wait until the proper thread!