The Voice of Saruman / The Voice of Hitler

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Nobody wants to hear they are the cause of their own problems. Hitler took the beliefs already within the German people and propelled them to get them to do what he wanted to do ...

I take your point about the difference in oratory style between Saruman and Hitler, Boro, but this comment does rather put me in mind of Saruman's treatment of the Dunlendings.

[Boromir88]

What a shame...I remember when threads like this one would get reply after replay after reply...Anywho:

I take your point about the difference in oratory style between Saruman and Hitler, Boro, but this comment does rather put me in mind of Saruman's treatment of the Dunlendings.~SpM

I see what you're saying. That would fit with Saruman and the Dunlendings. But, I think you can generically apply this to all politicians (or leaders for that matter). They flock to public opinion. Which is why here in the U.S. the two parties really aren't so radically different (when compared to the rest of the world)...because the majority of the polutation has a 'moderatistic' approach...therefor both parties will go to the 'middle' to win the support from the majority of the public. And the two parties, though having their obvious differences, aren't so different on the 'spectrum' when compared to the rest of the world.

So, kind of getting things back to Saruman here. I agree, I think he did use what the Dunlanders believed to fuel them into attacking Rohan. (Therefor he was not only a sweet-talker, but a smart persuader/politician). However, I would like to point out that Saruman possessed a charm that Hitler did not have (allbeit Saruman is a fictional character; but just bare with me here ).

As thebastardlandlord said, which if you go on and listen and watch some of Hitler speeches you wonder what was so 'captivating' about this guy. Perhaps it was the fiery rage he built up to in the end, but other than that, his voice was probably just as bad as Neville Chamberlain's ( ). In fact, when Hitler was put in jail for treason, the reason he was treated rather pleasantly (since treason is a crime punishable by death) was the German court really didn't think he was a great 'leader' and he wouldn't be able to get people to follow him. They doubted his ability as a speaker and as a leader to get people behind him and support him. So, they went soft on him believing he wouldn't be much of a problem and he would simply just 'go away' after he was punished.

Saruman on the other hand did possess that charm...which I think is only apparent when Theoden said that Saruman had 'lost his charm,' meaning at one time Saruman did have a 'charming voice.' Even at this point when Theoden seems to be one of the most steadfast people against Saruman's 'awesome' voice, we see the charm of Saruman coming in to play an affect on him:

So great was the power that Saruman exerted in his laste effort that none that stood withing hearing were unmoved. But now the spell was wholly different. They heard the gentle remonstrance of a kindly king with an erring but much-loved minister. But they were shut out, listening at a door to words not meant for them: ill-mannered children or stupid servants overhearing the elusive discourse of their elders, and wondering houw it would affect their lot...Even in the mind of Theoden the thought took shape, like a shadow of doubt: 'He wil betray us; he will go - we shall be lost.'~The Voice of Saruman

Saruman just not only possesses the smart 'wits' to use what people believe to his advantage. But he also just has that natural ability to charm you and certainly as Tolkien put it 'corrupt your reasoning abilities.' From the description I got of Mosley's voice, that's how he came off as too. His voice had the same quality and beauty (yet dangerous) as the way Saruman's was described.

[Aaron]

Again. Mussolini. He fooled the West into beleiving he was a peacemaker. hell, even Churchill said that were he Italian he would join the fascist party!

[Boromir88]

I don't think this is really a topic where one answer is 'better' or 'more right' than the other. Personally I don't know a lot about Mussolini, I just know he was smart in legally siezing control and solidifying his power in Italy...as far as a speaker never heard him.

Anyway, I don't think this is something where there is only one 'right answer' to. There are many skilled speakers out there (politicians, leaders, sports broadcasters, and just your everyday civilian). There are tons of people out there where if you listen to them talk you are just like 'wow' simply an amazing voice. I don't know if they would all have the same charm as say Saruman, Mosley, or I'm assuming...Mussolini. But, there are several people somebody can come up with to just come out and say 'This person's voice is simply magical.'

The state representative in my area (Mr. Carano), former teacher turned politician. I had the pleasure of working a long with him in several programs and events and this guy is another one of those vocal talents. He's got a powerful booming voice (though not to the point of annoyance) that really gets you sparked up. He's one of those men that can 'stir the fire in the soul' so to say, and get people behind a particular issue. Where unlike Mosley, this man's words were true and he truly is a class act, coming from the simple life of an educator and rising up in the world of politics.

Point being, is we can sit here and apply several names from the past and present that remind us of Saruman's voice, and not one I would say is more right than any other (provided that somebody can explain their reasoning/belief). I think it's more like Graham Greene's book The Power and the Glory, where his main characters (The Whiskey Priest, The Lieutenant...and some others that escape me at the moment) are named exactly that. As it's set in Mexico during the revolution to kick out Spain and get rid of any Spanish influence (the main one being Catholicism). So during this time Priests were hunted down and punished as anything at all that had to do with Spain was trying to be annihilate from society. Anywho, Graham Greene purposefully leaves his characters without a name because any priest, any police lieutenant...etc of that time can go to describe and fit his characters. There wasn't one particular priest or Lieutenant that faced the situation the characters in Greene's book were in. But the readers can place all the priests and lieutenants of this particular time period and fit them in with Graham Greene's characters.

I think the same situation is done here with Saruman. Although Saruman is given a name, we can connect any corrupted leader/politician that enchanted people with the power of their voices to Saruman...and each one would be just as 'correct' as the next one.