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12-09-2006, 12:03 PM | #1 |
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Could Gandalf have won the war alone?
It is said at a number of points in the story (e.g. by Gandalf himself at the "Last Debate") that there will be no hope for the free people of Middle Earth if Frodo's mission fails. However, I cannot really imagine that Gandalf did not have a "Plan B", and would have surrendered or died without doing anything in case the last battle at the Black Gate failed. By the way, otherwise it would not have been ok in my opinion to send 7000 men to an almost secure death.
My idea is the following: If the battle at Morannon turned out to be desastrous, Gandalf would have shown his full power, marched through the lines of the enemies to Barad Dur and threw Sauron down. If you think that this is complete nonsense, I ask you to consider the following points: At his encounter with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in Fangorn, Gandalf says that nobody of these three has a weapon that could harm him, and both these warriors and their weapons were certainly much better than the orcs and men of Mordor. Second, Gandalf was able to completely break Saruman's power at Orthanc, and Saruman - like Sauron - is a Maia from his origin. So I think that there was indeed some hope for the "West" beyond Frodo's "mission impossible" to Mordor. |
12-09-2006, 12:22 PM | #2 | |||
Eagle of the Star
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I wouldn't think so; Gandalf himself states:
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12-10-2006, 11:29 AM | #3 | |||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Also I'd be aware of what Raynor mentioned, that Gandalf's mission was NOT to take Sauron down by force. This is just what happens to the "normal human thinking". In this way, I dare to say that probably almost all of us, are in default "Boromirs" (Not meaning Boromir as character, just at this point of thinking at the Council. Boromir was cool!). Because this is what Boromir just did: when being asked at the Council of Elrond, what should be done, his first thought was to use the Ring as a weapon. To try to overthrow Sauron by force. Of course, this is the most logical thing from normal, human point of view. In another discussion, I asked, what would you vote for had you been sitting on the Council of Elrond. Would you let one hobbit go right into the land of the Enemy, or would you try to find some other way, at least to assemble all the forces you are able to and try to win over the Enemy? Why, the Ring was a perfect tool for this. If Gandalf wanted this, why didn't he use this "plan B" rightaway, for example giving the Ring to Aragorn, taking care of him not to go mad by the Ring as much as it is possible, quickly assemble all forces, both Men and Elves, defeat Sauron and then destroy the Ring (killing Aragorn, in the worst possibility, would be no problem against killing Sauron had he taken the Ring). Take a parallel in the First Age: Many uncounted battles, many and many armies and heroes of the High Elves, who have seen the Light of Aman and learned from Valar and had weapons which could cut steel and who knows what else, and they were not able to get rid of Morgoth. However, Beren, "a simple son of trapper" was able to enter Angband and take one of the Silmarils. Not because he was "a simple son of trapper" or because he had Lúthien by his side (although of course, this was important), but because he was destined to - or better said, his deeds were according to Eru's will (like Frodo's). The point is not to have 30,000 warriors, or 300 High Elf Lords (or even one, like Fingolfin) but to do things according to Eru's will. From both LotR and the history of the Silmarils you can deducate this: whatever was done by whoever, there was almost nothing of their own accomplishment, the most powerful victories were accomplished by, said with Tolkien, accident. Quote:
You cannot say "He was a Maia, so..." - Gandalf (and Saruman! All of the wizards in the origin, after all) gave up his power willingly to be reduced, to be diminished in the mortal form. Yes, they had some more power, but they were not allowed (from their own choice in the beginning) to use it fully. I thought of one very similar situation to that of Gandalf&the other wizards, I think I could use it as some illustration, or parallel: it is from the 4th chapter of the Gospel of Matthew. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is lead to the desert to be tempted (or tested) by the devil. "If you are the Son of God," says the devil to Jesus, "tell these stones to become bread." Gandalf could, literally, also "turn the stones to the bread". He didn't. Or more evident, if I use one more quote: Quote:
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So, for those who don't like reading long posts, my answer to the question "Could Gandalf have won the war alone" is: No, and he wouldn't (and shouldn't!) even want to.
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12-10-2006, 12:24 PM | #4 |
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There is presumably some distinction between the statement "no weapons you have could harm me..." and the ability to actually throw down Sauron, which implies something beyond self-defense. Raynor's quote of the line that "Black is mightier still..." is very much to the point.
As we have seen, you can't simply blindly apply the hierarchy of Middle Earth--Sauron has significantly increased his power, through his own talents and through the forging of the Ring, over the course of two ages of the Earth, so he is more than a match for any number of Maia. Also, this seems to run completely counter to the entire point of the book, which is that in the end Sauron will be defeated by the lesser people, who he has ignored and underestimated. His inability to understand the course of action devised by Gandalf, namely to destroy the Ring rather than to use it, is his real undoing--of course, it is Gandalf who takes advantage of this, but that isn't the same as saying that Gandalf will storm Barad Dur...
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12-10-2006, 02:27 PM | #5 | |||
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12-10-2006, 02:37 PM | #6 | ||
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One more thing I'd like to point out is, I think with each time Sauron was killed and had to reform, he lost more of his power: Quote:
By the War of the Ring, I think Sauron had enough force (militarily) to beat down the West, so defeating Sauron by force wasn't an option. However, each time Sauron died and had to reconstruct a new body, he appears to have been weaker than the previous.
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12-10-2006, 02:53 PM | #7 |
A Mere Boggart
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There's also the not very insignificant factor that the One Ring had to be destroyed. Even had Gandalf marched into Mordor and opened up a whole can of wizardly whupass on Sauron and smote him or something like that (and I doubt that he could have done this anyway) the Ring would still have existed. This Ring was made by Sauron and contained something of Sauron. Note how all the great and the good refuse the Ring as they know that if they owned it then they too would turn into tyrants; had it continued to exist then there would have been a mini-me Sauron to deal with all over again in a few years time, maybe a Napoleon-like Frodo or a wicked witch of the west Galadriel.
Gandalf was going for the full monty, the absolute defeat. Draw a line under it, shut the door, return to Valinor, job done. That's what's so frightening about Frodo's mission, the whole future of Middle-earth depends on him literally unmaking the Ring.
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12-10-2006, 02:59 PM | #8 | |
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12-10-2006, 03:27 PM | #9 |
Laconic Loreman
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Sorry if it seems like were all piling on here...but regarding what Essex said about the point of Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli being better than the Orcs/Men of Mordor. Sure, I would say any one of those three is better than a single orc, but how about approximately 70,000 orcs/men, which is what they were up against at the Morannon?
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12-10-2006, 04:22 PM | #10 | |
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' Last edited by CSteefel; 12-10-2006 at 07:55 PM. |
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12-10-2006, 06:58 PM | #11 |
Haunting Spirit
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well if gandalf is able to take on sauron would that mean he is stronger than what gil galad elindil were
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12-11-2006, 05:24 AM | #12 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I agree with all of the Legate of Amon Lanc's points. Gandalf had no "plan B" but perhaps he had a "plan C", for himself or his successor to wander around the slave camps of Middle Earth, spreading hope and the knowledge that a free world had once existed until, after many generations of men, Sauron felt secure enough to let his guard slip enough for someone to get at The Ring and destroy it. . |
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12-11-2006, 11:43 AM | #13 | |||
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12-11-2006, 01:48 PM | #14 | |
A Mere Boggart
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That's at the very heart of the difficult decisions made at the Council of Elrond. They could plan and make strategies, pool resources, get their powerful aides such as Gandalf or Galadriel out there to fight and connive and in some way to beat Sauron. They could even use the Ring as Boromir wants to do. But the real difficulty is that the Ring must be unmade to have any kind of effective victory - as long as that exists no victory could be complete.
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12-11-2006, 03:32 PM | #15 | |
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So we see the remark from Gandalf quoted by Raynor about the "great weakening of his power", and then we see this quote in which it is stated that even if he did not wear the Ring, the power existed. So clearly Sauron is strongest when he has the Ring, but still in possession of power perhaps well beyond the "typical Maia" even when he is not wearing it.
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12-18-2006, 01:59 PM | #16 |
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Seeing as this isn't Battle for Middle-Earth, there is no way Gandalf could have done it alone. Granted, orcs are pretty weak and pathetic, but with the rest of Sauron's army and the Nazgul, Gandalf would have gone down. While he likely could have defeated the crippled and combat-inept Sauron, he wouldn't have made it through the army between the two, full power or no.
Before anyone says "But they are Maia/Vala" Sauron was a Maia, and he got beaten by a dog. Then, with the one ring, he was defeated by a very old (even for his kind) man and an elven king who was not as strong as the ones of old when both were likely tired from fighting through Sauron's armies. Just because you are something does not equal victory whatsoever.
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12-24-2006, 11:19 AM | #17 |
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Weren't the Istari forbidden from openly challenging Sauron himself, as in ride into Mordor and challenge him directly. I thought that they were supposed to rally the free peoples and help them overthrow Sauron. Just a thought, probably wrong though.
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12-24-2006, 12:21 PM | #18 | |||
Eagle of the Star
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No, all referrences I know state that they were only forbidden to show their full power in their "contest of the growth of the Shadow":
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