LotR3-RotK-Seq15

[Essex]

Never before did I post or even read an internet forum, yet here I was, joining up just so that I could make myself heard. Incredibly the moniker ‘alatar’ was still available, and so I took that one, though at the time I figured that I would vent about the Gandalf-Witch King scene and leave it at that. Unless the forum were organizing a large pie-throwing attack on PJ’s house, I didn’t see the attraction. But then I got repped, got into a few ‘arguments’ with Essex, who showed me that there was another side of the movies, got hooked, and after that I started moving around the forum a bit and found that I kinda liked it here.

I remember the days and fun we had 'discussing' this scene. Without doubt the most fun I've had on these forums. If ever a scene has been done to it's death it's this one!!! But hey, as you said, if PJ had not done the scene this way we wouldn't have you here to grace this forum, and the Downs wouldn't definately be a duller place! Keep it up!

(I'll reply later on the rest - I'm slow on the updates to these scenes these days - sorry)

[Elladan and Elrohir]

The worst moment in the film trilogy, followed by one of the best, followed by one that at the very least could have been better.

It seems redundant to give any more criticism to the you-know-what scene. How about reasons for why it's in there, albeit in the EE? I will say that one thing it does is symbolize the utter defeat of Gondor, the lowest point . . . followed by the glorious horns of the Rohirrim at cock-crow.

The charge of the Rohirrim is brilliant, and I think it gets at least nine-tenths of the book's glory. If only Aragorn's appearance could have been anywhere near this good. . . . Bernard Hill has been subtly great throughout, and now he gets center stage and, of course, does awesome. And hey, who's that bearded Rohan guy? Well, I'll be, it's Eomer! Where has he been? In the entire trilogy, he's on screen for about six and a half minutes (no, that's not an actual statistic).

Then, it's time for the Pyre of Denethor. John Noble continues to be a master of dementia. I think I can actually defend Gandalf's actions here. He starts out by knocking Denethor off the pyre, temporarily saving his life; then lets Pippin off to grab Faramir. When he does rear Shadowfax and knock Denny back onto the pyre, I think it's because he realizes that the Steward's going to kill himself regardless and could still harm Pippin or Faramir. I can't say I buy that interpretation 100%, but I think it's somewhat plausible. And of course, as mentioned already, having Denny run all that way and off the edge is pretty ridiculous, though a striking visual. Gandalf's accompanying narration seems flat, because we haven't got a chance to know Denethor at all, much less to like him.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

I remember the days and fun we had 'discussing' this scene. Without doubt the most fun I've had on these forums. If ever a scene has been done to it's death it's this one!!! But hey, as you said, if PJ had not done the scene this way we wouldn't have you here to grace this forum, and the Downs wouldn't definately be a duller place! Keep it up!

Much agreed with all of that. Had you not been so 'proPJ,' I wouldn't have had to research (well, somewhat) and refine my position, and so could have left it at a few posts, but no! you just wouldn't agree that my point of view was the only correct view.

Thanks for all of your past and future posts.

Something that I forgot to mention, but isn't it interesting that Gothmog didn't see the need to post scouts atop the rise upon which the Rohirrim collect. Did he feel that the Rohirrim wouldn't come (surely Sauron saw the signal fires), or did they come by an unexpected path, like in the books?

To me Gothmog was just negligent, but that's what you get when you have major operations conducted by a mere orc chieftain...

Elladan and Elrohir, to me there's no way to 'pretty up' the fact that Gandalf sought to kill the Steward. Contrast the Gandalf here with the one in Moria who counseled against slaying Gollum.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

Something that I forgot to mention, but isn't it interesting that Gothmog didn't see the need to post scouts atop the rise upon which the Rohirrim collect. Did he feel that the Rohirrim wouldn't come (surely Sauron saw the signal fires), or did they come by an unexpected path, like in the books?

This is the one and only time I'm ever going to use a quote (ish) from Star Trek, but as Spock points out to Kirk as they are being hunted by Khan 'He thinks in only 2 dimensions'. i.e. Some arrogant, over confident generals can sometimes be very blinkered!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

This is the one and only time I'm ever going to use a quote (ish) from Star Trek, but as Spock points out to Kirk as they are being hunted by Khan 'He thinks in only 2 dimensions'. i.e. Some arrogant, over confident generals can sometimes be very blinkered!

Interesting that you cite that scene (think that I may have watched once or twice ). Anyway, from memory, doesn't the Enterprise still enter the same 'plane' before attacking Khan's ship (meaning that Kirk doesn't bring the Enterprise down on top of the Reliant, perpendicular to the plane in which the Reliant sits.)?

Something else that I've noted: what is the use of Screechers in the air if they cannot see the approach of the Rohirrim?

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Originally Posted by alatar

Elladan and Elrohir, to me there's no way to 'pretty up' the fact that Gandalf sought to kill the Steward. Contrast the Gandalf here with the one in Moria who counseled against slaying Gollum.

Well, okay, but you'd have to agree it's a slightly different situation. Here, Denethor has grabbed Pippin, and as I rewatch the scene, I think he's got more than his own death in his eyes, due to his madness. I don't know if 'pretty up' is the right term, but I still think you can justify this.

Originally Posted by alatar

Something else that I've noted: what is the use of Screechers in the air if they cannot see the approach of the Rohirrim?

They apparently didn't spot the Rohirrim in the book, either.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

They apparently didn't spot the Rohirrim in the book, either.

In the books, to me, they are there to spread fear and remain pretty much out of bow shot (not that any remained on the walls to take a shot). Their Chief is riding through the Gate when the Rohirrim appear, and so hasn't the best vantage point to see the Riders. Plus, he'd left a trap on the road, with pits and orcs, and so thought it "inconceivable" that the Rohirrim would even show. And the orcs and other eyed creatures were baffled a bit by the Darkness.

In the movie it seems that there is more light, and the Winged One is flying around the battlefield more. He and his eight aces strafe the city, and to me that means that they have some kind of sight, and so would see the other army appear. Plus Gothmog wasn't blind, and unless we assume that Theoden et al were assisted off-screen by the Woses, there was a road by which help could come.

I quibble. Thanks for posting.

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

Originally Posted by alatar

they are there to spread fear and remain pretty much out of bow shot (not that any remained on the walls to take a shot)

i dont get this what is the point of having fell beasts if they are not going to use them as major items of war??? they are always out of bow range and every one is too scared to try and shoot them. why hide away if no ones gona try shooting you??? i still wanna see a nazgul fall 15 hundred feet. :