I don't understand this either...

[Lalwendë]

Boro, most of what you say about men in the US is the same in the UK! Never ever approach a Brit you do not already know very well with a hug or (heaven forbid!) a kiss on the cheek or you will be labelled as 'forward' and therefore suspect, whether male or female. Male casual friendships (and many serious, lifelong ones, too) usually revolve around beer, arguments about football and cars and a lot of competitive bragging and banter. Only in Yorkshire, where the men are confident of their ultra-butchness are men able to call one another 'love' with impunity.

Seriously, from what I now know about 'slash' (and I didn't even know what it was that long ago) most of it is created by and for adult women. I can't say whether some of them viewed the male relationships in LotR as actually homoerotic, but they may have imagined them to be. As odd as this may seem, a lot of women find gay couples either exciting or beautiful. This possibly says a lot about women and if they perceive such relationships as 'non-threatening'; this is a probable reason, as psychologists say the success of boybands is down to girls finding non-threatening, quite 'feminised' young men who they can have as imaginary boyfriends until its time for them to get a real one. And even adult women like to daydream about characters in films and on TV - this is why Mr Darcy (as played by Colin Firth) is now symbolic of the 'dream man' for so many women, and Helen Fielding cleverly picked up on it for Bridget Jones (about the only clever thing...grumble grumble...).

Some people will go on about this or that 'pairing' in LotR (or any other film) being 'gay' because they wish to joke, sadly, and labelling something as 'gay' denigrates it in their minds, so don't listen to everything you hear. But even from the books its perfectly possible to read homoeroticism into some aspects, e.g. the relationship of Frodo and Sam, and its not 'wrong' to do so.

[Glirdan]

I would have to say that your theory on teenagers having a sexual agenda and applying it to everything they see. It's the hormones. It gets to them (I should say us, but I'm more mature than that...most of the time that is ) really quite easily. If you took a poll of the world's population, how many of them do you think would still be a virgin? Honestly. I go to schooland all I hear from others is "Oh, I slept with so and so over the weekend".

Personally, I too (I hate to admit it, but it was only then) thought that the way our beloved Professor wrote some of the lines between Frodo and Sam was a little homoerotic. However, after reading the parts with Sam and Rosie, I got over it and came to the conclusion that Sam and Frodo hve a very close connection. I personally have never had that connection with another guy because I am too sensitive and most guys (no offence meant for the other males here) only think about sex and girls. So everytime I see two guys really close, I sort of get the homoerotic impression.

Anyway, completely off topic. As I said, I don't think there was any intetion in both the movies or the books for homoeroticness. That's my conclusion. (Wow, I got really off topic in that post....wow...)

[Lalwendë]

Indeed, I would doubt there's any intention on Tolkien's part for such scenes to be homoerotic, but the imagination is a curious thing, and if people get that from reading what he wrote then there is nothing 'wrong' in it; it's surprising what sorts of things the human mind finds stimulating, and writers and artists don't really have any control over our creative imaginings. And anyway, if they will insist on putting Sean Bean in their films....

[Mithalwen]

If you have seen Lady Chatterley there is precious little left to imagine .... and while the 13 Gamgee children may have been an attempt to over compensate... you can't help thinking that a man who could name characters Teleporno and Shagrat may have been oblivious of some perceptions of his writing....

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

If you have seen Lady Chatterley there is precious little left to imagine .... and while the 13 Gamgee children may have been an attempt to over compensate... you can't help thinking that a man who could name characters Teleporno and Shagrat may have been oblivious of some perceptions of his writing....

Oh yes. I have a VHS tape of it and it's all crackly now...

Indeed, Tolkien wrote in (slightly) more innocent times, with his use of the descriptive words queer and gay, though I'm certain he would not have been entirely green about homosexuality, as not only did he go to a Boys' school but he worked in a University with many gay students and academics, some of them quite infamous, not least Tolkien's friend and pupil Auden, who fell in love with Isherwood while at Oxford.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

the thing about pretending to be gay is something people do. . .something I do. Let me tell you that it has absolutely nothing to do with homophobia, if anything it is an expresion of the opposite. How do we do it. . . well we actually make passes at each other and such. Not by hugging, because hugging is the way good friends greet each other (yes males too).

Some of my friends are gay so I really would hate to be labeled homophobic because I joke about being gay.

Well, I don't think that every man who jokes about being gay is homophobic. And the situation is different depending where you living. My high school is located in one of the most conservative states in the United States. Many people there really are homophobic and homosexuality is not as welcome as some other places. I didn't know of many gay people in that school, and I wonder if perhaps it was because they were afraid of coming out. There was a lesbian couple at my school, and each day they walked the halls hand-in-hand, I could feel the negative energy directed towards them. I do not think that all straight men who imitate gays are doing it to be hurtful, but there are some who do. And the guys in my high school who did it might have not been homophobic at all. But the vibe I got from how they acted made me think that they imitate gay males because they do not understand homosexuality, and it is their way to interpret how they feel about it. I believe that a similar attitude is directed to LotR when comes to interpreting male friendships as sexual.

I do realize guys who are completely comfortable with homosexuality still joke about it. I see it at my current school all the time. Yet, this joking is done in a different light. People don't do it because they're uncomfortable, but instead use it to express their acceptance. My school is well-known for the high percentage of gay students, and students like to emphasize this by joking about it. Often, the joke is how gay males outnumber the straight ones. We even put on a play, Romeo and Julian, which only accentuated the stereotype we're given.

Okay, sorry for any rambling. I thought I should just clarify...

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Seriously, from what I now know about 'slash' (and I didn't even know what it was that long ago) most of it is created by and for adult women.

I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me one bit.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I can't say whether some of them viewed the male relationships in LotR as actually homoerotic, but they may have imagined them to be.

I think you're right - in the case of adult women - probably not so much what they saw as what they found fun to imagine.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

As odd as this may seem, a lot of women find gay couples either exciting or beautiful. This possibly says a lot about women and if they perceive such relationships as 'non-threatening'; this is a probable reason, as psychologists say the success of boybands is down to girls finding non-threatening, quite 'feminised' young men who they can have as imaginary boyfriends until its time for them to get a real one.

True, but on the other hand, it may just be the flipside of the male fascination with lesbians. There is something appealing about a sexual situation where both people involved are attractive to you; and while being attractive themselves, also share the viewer's appreciation of the other's attractiveness. Double the pleasure, you know, double the fun, doublemint gum...um, yeah.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Seriously, from what I now know about 'slash' (and I didn't even know what it was that long ago) most of it is created by and for adult women. I can't say whether some of them viewed the male relationships in LotR as actually homoerotic, but they may have imagined them to be. As odd as this may seem, a lot of women find gay couples either exciting or beautiful. This possibly says a lot about women and if they perceive such relationships as 'non-threatening'; this is a probable reason, as psychologists say the success of boybands is down to girls finding non-threatening, quite 'feminised' young men who they can have as imaginary boyfriends until its time for them to get a real one.

I thought of writing about this one but thought that might be offending to someone...

So, naturally I think you have a point here.

Elijah Wood and Orlando Bloom might form a boyband! Just think of the success - and going by that road, I don't see that anyone can honestly think that PJ (or his production team) chose those actors just because of their acting skills!

------
But going back to Tolkien and the LotR. I think there might be something in Tolkien's writing that does make people of west in our time to look things from homoerotical point of view. That does not mean Tolkien wrote it as such, but that our culture has kind of toned down those parts of our inheritance that would have explained it otherwise.

Just remember Tolkien's early friends and their club of associates and then the war and what it did to that circle of young men. Add to this Tolkien's other experiences of war; not just fear and anxiety but also those of brotherhood and closeness to others in "harms way". I think it's not too far-fetched to read these experiences in the LotR between Frodo and Sam (and possibly between Aragorn and Legolas, maybe even Legolas and Gimli - and Gandalf could be a good general loving his lads whom he sends to the peril... and so on).

But that experience is here no more. The people who lived by the cultural standards of the beginning of the last century are already under the ground and the last veterans of WW2 who have any experience of utmost challenge are getting very old indeed. So we are left out of this experience as a shared one. And that is a good thing - in a sense that we haven't had a war of that scale (or any comparable lenghty tragedy) in the west after the WW2.

But we may mourn the loss of the notion of deeper friendship. We are the people always ready to mourn over things. Like any great artist, T.S. Elliot was ahead of his time when he wrote The Hollow Men (in "The Waste Land") just after the WW1. It fits us now even better than it fitted people then!

Now why is there no comradeship anymore in the old sense as we all seem to be so individual, why is all physical denied in the west unless it's sexual? That's a path I'm not wishing to engage right now, but I know there are a lots of philosophers and sociologists who have spent a good amount of time with this question... enough to fill the Downs, anyway.

PS. Well Vietnam... and now Iraq, might prove exceptions to my point of "no major catastrophy" after WW2. Well, I'm an European... The Vietnam-war produced the hippies - both at the homefront and in the battlefield. It might be too early to tell, what the Iraq-war will generate?

[Holbytlass]

As I was folding a MT Doom mound of laundry I was kind of watching the last hour or so of TRoK on T.N.T. (tv channel) when certain scenes made me think of this thread. Since I wasn't totally engrossed in the movie I saw bits where I can quite see why people thought it was homo-ish. I have Elijah Wood and Peter Jackson to blame.

The scene where Frodo and Sam are now surrounded by the flowing lava after the ring is destroyed and Sam is saying he if he got married it would be to Rosie.
Frodo has that doe-eyed longing look in his face. I thought about it and it would make more sense for Frodo to have a barely there smile cause he's happy for his friend and in reminiscence of the Shire that he can now remember.

Same thing when Sam and Rosie do get married. Frodo has this longing look on his face rather than that same barely there smile between to people have gone through so much together and yet are still happy for each other.

And again. when Frodo wakes up from his ordeal finds Gandalf alive, all the others come into his room but Sam stays by the door. At least in this instance Sam has that barely there smile that I talk about but it's still too much of a longing look.

I know what Peter and Elijah were trying to convey but it was a bit too much.

[Liriodendron]

Well....that's an interesting comment....I sometimes didn't exactly get what emotions Elija Wood was trying to convey.
So....what do think Jackson and Wood were trying to convey in those particular scenes.....just out of curiosity.

I always figured it was mostly the class thing....a very fine, gentlemanly "master" and his loyal gardener, this particular bond is even generationally ingrained with the gaffer and Bilbo. It's of the finest kind, a caring that turns to non sexual love under the intense conditions of the quest. It was also a friendship love too after so much time.
But the "class" thing is a relic from the past that many of the really young set (teenagers) might not get.
Also.....I'm sure that many men still develop "love" bonds that aren't homoesque to this day (its a human thing to love and care! ) but you need a few years to develop these kinds of feelings. Women and men aren't that different, imo.

[MatthewM]

I came in too late on this thread, but I just want to throw my two cents in. Most people hit it on the head with their responses, and there's nothing I really can say that hasn't been said in previous posts. But one thing I can say is, it really, really gets me mad when people make fun and call characters like Frodo and Sam/ Aragorn and Boromir/Legolas and Aragorn/Merry and Pippin/any LotR character gay. As stated, these people that say that have never known a true loving friendship. I can see where some people might crack a joke once in a blue moon at a Frodo and Sam scene. Whatever, life goes on. But to actually think that about these characters and be serious about it is ridiculous.

It's sad how it is here in the US, everyone was pretty accurate with the "Man Laws". Here, if you talk to your best friend on the phone for a while (of course this doesn't apply to a girl talking to a girl) people probably make fun or crack a joke. That's just one of the examples. People should learn from The Lord of the Rings and really get a deep understanding of friendship and the sacrifices that come along with it.

It is true that, at least in the US, sex is everywhere, and this is all teens (High Schoolers in particular) see. They are also growing and learning about all this sex stuff, so obviously it's gonna be on their mind often. Face it, it's on almost everybody's mind often. It may be the media, because all that is on TV is dating games with brainless women picking from 4 desperate guys in a van ...(just one of the examples ) It could also be plain old hormones, like someone previous had said, enhanced by all the sex on the media.

The whole situation is pretty sad.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

4 desperate guys in a van

Anyone else thinking about this LotR quote?

Legolas and Gimli were to ride again together in company of Aragorn and Gandalf, who went in the van..

--Return of the King, Book V, Chapter X: The Black Gate Opens.

The fact that there's four of them mentioned by name just makes it better.

[Lalwendë]

What are you saying Form? That it was really just one big dating show? These four guys being bundled into a van by an MTV crew and sent round to the desperate Eowyn? I think she chose the only one she could to be honest...shame he was already taken...

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Holbytlass

And again. when Frodo wakes up from his ordeal finds Gandalf alive, all the others come into his room but Sam stays by the door. At least in this instance Sam has that barely there smile that I talk about but it's still too much of a longing look.

Hahaha, I do agree with what you say, because some scenes I can see as well where some people might say it. But, also speaking of "once in a blue moon", have you ever seen that YouTube thing with this scene? lol.