I don't understand this either...

[Boromir88]

There definitely is a big misconception over friendship between males in the United States. I believe it's better understood in other parts of the world, as the common greeting method in Europe (whether it's a male greeting a male or not) is to kiss him on the cheeks. As only the movie Borat will show this 'clash of cultures' and the differences between greeting a fellow man in the US and that of other countries.

Whether you think it's stupid, or not, really isn't the point. The point is it's reality in the US that there is a strict set of man laws for the men to follow under or their sexuality will be up for question. Some common Man Laws around are:

-Men may not talk to other men about anything except sports, beer, cars, poker, and sex (with a female of course).
-A Man may not walk through the same door as another male friend unless the two are in a race where a prize in involved.
-A man need not say anything to a friend that is walking by. All that needs to be done is a nod of the head, no words should ever be exchanged.
-Men should never ever for any reason watch a Soap Opera

There is a belief in the US that Men in no way can have strong connections or friendships with other men. It's strictly an impersonal relationship of Men...say getting together to watch a sports game.

Seems rather foolish, and is certainly homophobic, but that's how it is. Anything that has to deal with emotions/feelings should not be done between men. That's probably why (at least) American students view the friendships between Sam/Frodo, and Aragorn/Legolas in a sexual way, because the idea that men can be personal with eachother and still only be friends is not possible.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Rune

Actually I don't think it is teenagers that is to blame for seeing these things. . .Sex is almost every where in western culture and I doubt that the teenagers put it there.

I quite agree. I hate watching TV, or even driving by billboards. Though I don't believe it's just western culture...bur we do have some kind of different twist on it, I think.

Boro hits the nail on the head, too, for me. I have ranted on many occasion about the "Man Laws" and foolishness of it.

I think there are countless examples in literature, even American literature, from even just the early half of the past century, which people just don't understand now because the concept of "love" has been equated with "sex," especially on the male front. Girls will say to each other that they "love" each other, but I don't know how often they really mean it, because I think it likely that they feel the same way: that "love" is reserved for on specific type/side/definition of it - it is simply more socially acceptable for girls to say "I love you" to each other as well as to guys.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that an "obsession" with sex, I think, is a rather natural, and dare I say hormonal thing. Teenagers (and people much older, too!) are going to think about it quite a lot, and are going to see it a lot of places it isn't. Maybe this is because of the culture, but maybe it's a natural thing. What I think makes the difference between a mature person and an immature person is to be more than simple thoughts or feelings, and to setup a separation between the natural workings of their consciousness and preconsciousness, and their actions, speech, and real considerations. That's human self-control...I think part of what makes us human. But that is an entirely different conversation...

[Folwren]

I, too, have heard comments about homosexuality being protrayed in the movie and books - mostly pertaining to Frodo and Sam. (I actually never heard Aragorn and Legolas paired up...I never noticed that they looked at each other except in conversation. Sheesh. What's a man supposed to do while talking to another guy?) It makes me hot with anger and disgust.

I talked about it once with my older brother. We were talking about how close in friendship Frodo and Sam got on their journey to Mordor and through it. He said as follows:

"They just don't understand what real friendship is like. You stick two of those boys or young men together, give them a gun and send them out to fight in Vietnam by themselves and they'll become close friends, too!"

And I think that's it. They just can't comprehend the torture, the agony, and the difficulty of the journey, the mental torment it must have been! You need someone to lean on!

And, yeah, as Durelin said - girl's often say 'I love you' to one another. What about your family? You say that to your Mom and Dad and siblings (well........you should). There are quite a few different types of love, and I think the problem with the people who are saying that LotR is homosexual don't understand that.

You also need to understand that - at least in the U.S. - everything is about sex. You can't get away from it - unless you're homeschooled, like I was. There is no other 'love' to the common teenager or young person, and even to some of the older supposedly 'mature' person, than that. And so, when they watch a movie that has no girls in it, they try to apply it and what do they find?? My blood boils to think. I think that's actually why PJ had to add Arwen so much....to get some people off his back about having no girl in it. Bah humbug.

Anyway, there are just some of my thoughts. I think it's disgusting. The thought would have never run through my little innocent mind if it weren't for some sick people.

-- Folwren

[Durelin]

I feel the need to say one more thing...

I would have thought of it on my own, just not seriously.

I don't really find it at all disturbing or incomprehensible for someone to think of it - just to think of it, like a simple musing or observation. But to think of it seriously? Thinking of it as true? No.

[Brinniel]

It seems ever since the movies were first released, the idea of Frodo and Sam being gay has been around. I do think it's just a joke and most don't take it seriously, but still, after awhile it can be quite sickening.

As mentioned, I think this mostly comes from the idea that the true male hero is supposed to "manly," meaning they cannot show any sort of emotion or affection. I hate the fact that in this day and age, people automatically assume that a man's love for another man can only be sexual. Men aren't robots- they're human. I appreciate that PJ kept the characters' affections for each other in the movies. For this, perhaps the relationships (another automatic assumption these days- that relationships are always romantic- no, friendships are relationships too) shown in the films are more realistic and human than most films you see in theatres today. Most films don't show that sort of affection, and it influences our culture. Maybe if more movies showed the type of love between characters that is seen in LotR, then relationships between Sam and Frodo and Aragorn and Legolas wouldn't be perceived as gay.

The problem is that in our society, homosexuality has become so frowned down upon. Straight males don't want to be misinterpreted as gay, so it's important for them to stick to their "manly" behavior. I noticed in my high school, many guys would joke about homosexuality...sometimes they would go as far as imitating gay males. How would they do this? By hugging each other (apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay ) and slapping each other's butts. Joking around and commenting that Sam and Frodo are so obviously gay is similar to that. Most people joke about this simply because they are uncomfortable with the subject of homosexuality. It's their own problem and they need to get over it.

That said, I've been lucky enough not to deal with most of those problems for the last few months. A large percentage of my school is gay, so most students understand the line between what's just friendship and what's sexual. No one is uncomfortable about homosexuality, therefore jokes don't need to be made about it. Then again, I think the straight males at my school often feel the need to be extra "manly" because it is extremely easy for them to be misinterpreted as gay...

[Rikae]

I agree with much of what has already been said. I think it's a symptom of people's inability to understand the idea of platonic love or real friendship anymore. It seems like this is especially the case in America, as Boro says, and I find it incredibly sad: people who can't comprehend the idea of love that is not romantic/sexual are missing so much in life. I also think a lot of the giggling, in the case of teens, is an attempt to fit in and not necessarily a reflection of their feelings. I seem to recall (when I was a teenager, at least) the 'naughtiest' ideas being, somehow the safest; they put you in a position of power, while appearing naive is a fate worse than death!

[Thinlómien]

Oh, this seems to have provoked quite many replies.

Anyway, I wanted to hear your thoughts before saying mine, and I must say I'm on the same lines along with many people here: there was no hidden gay agenda, people see what they want to see and the concept of friendship between males is crooked nowadays.

In the books the male characters show their affection and love to each other too. When in the Houses of healing it is said that Aragorn kisses Merry, I don't think anyone reading the book regards it as a homoerotic scene, or more importantly, as a romantic kiss.

Originally Posted by alatar

Like when viewing clouds, people see what they want. Having watched LotR many times now, I've noticed that PJ is very anti-Penguin.. Have you seen even one penguin in the whole 12+ hours of film? Pretty clear, the statement that he's making...

Ahh! I KNEW there was something terribly wrong with the movies! I knew!

Originally Posted by Rune

The books clearly states that there is love between the different male charachters, it was love for Aragorn that made the grey company and others walk the path of the dead and so on.

I agree. Legolas (at least) mentions his love for Aragorn a couple of times. First he says that all that know Aragorn love him in some way (he knows Aragorn so that clearly includes himself) and later when he speaks with Gimli about the restoring of Minas Tirith he says that it's also for "love for the Lord of The White Tree". I've never seen this as homosexul, and given the contexts, I don't think anyone else can see it either. (No, not even a homophobic teenager boy ... Or maybe actually, but the point was that it's not certainly the first thing to pop in the mind of an average reader.)

Originally Posted by Rune

Of course it could be that Tolkien belives that love in its purest form only can be shared betwen two men! Not necesarily sexual. . . .

I think he actually says so in the letters, but I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Zali

It's almost as though true friendships don't really exist for the media...and when they do, they're always between girls.

Yes, but the friendships between girls are portrayed as superficious and the way that they can break any time when the girls fall in love with the same guy...

Originally Posted by Boro

I believe it's better understood in other parts of the world, as the common greeting method in Europe (whether it's a male greeting a male or not) is to kiss him on the cheeks.

Well, yes, maybe southern Europe, but not in Finland. Though there is some cultural difference. I once watched an american reality tv show (the format being something like 10 straight guys and 10 gay guys and a woman who has to pick a straight one) where there were two men that had to sleep in the same room and there was only a pair bed in the room. What do these guys do? They flip a coin which one has to sleep on the floor. Really, I think that's ridiculous. I bet in Finland the attitude would have been something like "I can sleep beside you, but if you do something guy I'll butcher you".

Originally Posted by Brinniel

(apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay)

That's so true. A friend of mine (straight guy) said it was one of the greatest moments in his life, when parting from his friends when changing school, his best friend came and hugged him. This friend of mine has grown up in a "men can be just friends and hug each other" -atmosphere and he said it's really distressing that guys can't hug their friends, since hugging is for him a natural way of showing affection. Sadly, this friend of mine is definitely an exception among the guys here in Finland.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Brother of Folwren

"They just don't understand what real friendship is like. You stick two of those boys or young men together, give them a gun and send them out to fight in Vietnam by themselves and they'll become close friends, too!"

I think it more likely that they would get killed. . .

Originally Posted by Brinniel

The problem is that in our society, homosexuality has become so frowned down upon. Straight males don't want to be misinterpreted as gay, so it's important for them to stick to their "manly" behavior. I noticed in my high school, many guys would joke about homosexuality...sometimes they would go as far as imitating gay males. How would they do this? By hugging each other (apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay ) and slapping each other's butts. Joking around and commenting that Sam and Frodo are so obviously gay is similar to that. Most people joke about this simply because they are uncomfortable with the subject of homosexuality. It's their own problem and they need to get over it.

Actually in the Homophobic parts of Denmark guys would never pretend to be gay. . . but the thing about pretending to be gay is something people do. . .something I do. Let me tell you that it has absolutely nothing to do with homophobia, if anything it is an expresion of the opposite. How do we do it. . . well we actually make passes at each other and such. Not by hugging, because hugging is the way good friends greet each other (yes males too).

Some of my friends are gay so I really would hate to be labeled homophobic because I joke about being gay. It is more a thing we do to signal that we really don't care which sexual orientation people have.

I have done stuff that would probably make people "mark" me as gay in alot of places. . .but it held no meaning for me. It was kind of "I do this because I chose to and you can make of it what you want"

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

Originally Posted by Folwren

"They just don't understand what real friendship is like. You stick two of those boys or young men together, give them a gun and send them out to fight in Vietnam by themselves and they'll become close friends, too!"-- Folwren

your right, go to most conflict zones or anywhere where death is a common every day thing and the friends will love each other more and be closer.
mabey someone should start wwIII

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by FeRaL sHaDoW

mabey someone should start wwIII

While waiting for it people should maybe enjoy different wws... Might help too...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

WW3: didn't I mod that?

(Sorry)

[Thinlómien]

I found this (by accident) in YouTube yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbstkXowlAc

It is a music video to a song called Hungry Eyes and it shows glances Aragorn and Legolas cast each other in the movies (though not all the expressions are ones they cast at each other). You kind of can see where all these gay theories pop up from (or then I just am as silly as the video-maker ).