Gothmog as Pat

[ninja91]

To explain myself for voting other, I cant see a good explanation as to how he could be a Nazgul. Yes, the Witch King being the captain could very well make a Nazgul being Lieutenant logical, but I think that Tolkien would not have made it such a mystery if it was really that simple.

And orc? I cant say that I think one orc would rise up to be the lieutenant of the Morgul-Host without being mentioned before. That is a pretty high rank.

If he was a man, I think he would have to be one of the Black Numenoreans, because I cannot think of another big race of men so high up in Sauron's mind (i.e. the Mouth of Sauron).

That's just my opinion though. For all we know, it could have been Tom Bombadil in disguise.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by radagastly

I voted for Gothmog as Nazgul. (which I suppose would also make him Man, of sorts). I know there is no evidence to either support or decry this view of him, but I have never imagined him as anything else in thirty years of reading/re-reading. I was actually surprised that anyone ever considered him to be anything else.

Really? Myself, I am actually surprised that someone even thought about him being a nazgul. Just wonderful! I mean, I love this plurality of opinions. Myself, when I saw the option "nazgul" in the poll, I thought: ah, interesting, but don't think anyone will go for it. From my point, I could say who I don't think he is. As I feel it, I cannot imagine Gothmog as:
simple "snaga" - this would certainly be quite embarassing
skurut-hai - well... maybe... but since he is too high-ranked, it would be very improbable. Certainly not that guy from the movie. No, never.
black númenorean - that's too high for him. Although after some thinking about it he might be something like that, from the first sight his name does not fit with it, I imagine something more "rough" than númenoreans (even black)
nazgul - as above. And anyway, Gothmog would hardly be his true name when he was still Man - but no one says nazgul keep their names when they fade out.
easterling - sucks
southron - sucks
variag of Khand - same as above
or whatever else of these men;
So it seems Gothmog is maybe troll - lol - probably olog-hai, or some hyperbrutal barbarian of far East beyond the maps of Middle-earth. If you ask what I imagined when reading that part where he is mentioned, I imagined just the rush of battle and some unspotted one Gothmog standing between thousands of Easterlings, Variags of Khand and black men of Far Harad. He's just Gothmog: he is what we is. Which brings me to...

Originally Posted by ninja91

For all we know, it could have been Tom Bombadil in disguise.

Talking about that, I'd consider him something like Tom Bombadil for the dark side. See: certainly powerful and mighty person (as Bombadil is in the terms of those who look at him without more deeper thoughts about who he is), not mentioned before and not mentioned after, but considerable for the course of the events.

[Macalaure]

Even though I agree that it would make some sense that Gothmog was a Nazgul, but, somehow, I can't imagine him as such, just like Legate.

He surely was no simple orc, maybe some mighty orc captain, but I doubt it. He would have had the strength and authority needed, but he still would have been no more trustworthy than any orc.

I always imagined him as some sort of Black Numenorean, or some other human of a nobler kind long under the power of Sauron. (Earnur? )

What I think we can rule out is that he was something else. I mean, come on, just look at how much joy Tolkien obviously had when he described such things, the description of the Fell Beasts, for example. If Gothmog was something else what we didn't knew then, he would have told us and he would have described him to us, gloomy and vaguely, and the lines would have been little gems of the trilogy.

[The Saucepan Man]

Gothmog was portrayed as a Nazgul in a LotR wargame which I used to play many years ago (and which I still have) and I have accordingly thought of him as such ever since.

Simple reasoning for a simple soul.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I've always just assumed that Gothmog was a Nazgul -- I mean, it's pretty clear, isn't it, that the Nazgul are the worst and most powerful of Sauron's servants. It doesn't make sense that there could be an orc or even a powerful Man who somehow supercedes 8 of the 9...I mean:

Orc -- debased and broken slaves; quarrel amongst themselves; stupid. Given the sample orcs we've seen, can you imagine a creature like that ordering around a Nazgul?

Men -- better than orcs, but Nazgul are Men corrupted by and enhanced with a Ring of Power: why, if you are a Nazgul, have as your second in command a Ringless Man when you can have a Ringed Man?

[Anguirel]

I think Gothmog was a pseudo-historico-literary reference to the earlier Gothmog.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I really have no idea what Gothmog is. . . but I kind of pictured him Orc/man/thing and not Nazgul.

I quite simply think that Tolkien would have told us if he was.

[Liriodendron]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Gothmog was portrayed as a Nazgul in a LotR wargame which I used to play many years ago (and which I still have) and I have accordingly thought of him as such ever since.

Simple reasoning for a simple soul.

Really! Someone better tell them they made a mistake!

[Boromir88]

I highly doubt Gothmog was an Orc. At a stretch I can agree with Raynor about Gothmog the Man-Orc. I don't see Sauron placing an Orc in such a high position as second in command to the Witch-King. He doesn't seem the type to trust the Orcs with high tasks. They were capable of fighting, hard to control at times, Sauron operated through fear as far as controlling them. Placing an Orc second-in-command of his army isn't something I see Sauron doing. A Man-Orc I can see as a stretch, as Raynor points out they did have the leadership qualities that Orcs didn't have.

And we do know for sure that Sauron trusted Men more. As it is Men whom he gives the 9 Rings out to and it is a Man that is his Lieutenant of Barad-dur. So, why not it be a Man who is Lieutenant of his armies?

Also, to note Gothmog is in command of a group of Men. Would Men really want to be led by an Orc, and would Sauron put an Orc to lead his men? I doubt it.

As far as a Nazgul, there's nothing to say for or against it. Personally, I agree with Ninja...afterall this is a person that gets one line in the entire story. Tolkien left his Nazgul nameless, as if you don't have a name that shows you don't have an identity. You are under the complete control of another power. To give his Nazgul names is to give them an identity, therefor they remain nameless. The Witch-King is a title, and Khamul is only mentioned in a draft of Unfinished Tales, no where else so I don't think we can apply that to LOTR.

[Amras Oronar]

I'd say Gothmog is a Maiar, he is lord of balrogs and captain of Angband, no orc or man can do that, balrogs (maiar) are greater than man or orcs...

And a nazgul is af course redicoules, the nazgul are 'ring wraiths'. How can Gothmog be a nazgul if the rings of power were not even made to get him into that state...

Now I can't see anything but a balrog himself to be lord of balrogs.... I mean I don't think even nazgul's are powerfull enough for that

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I don't see Sauron placing an Orc in such a high position as second in command to the Witch-King. He doesn't seem the type to trust the Orcs with high tasks.

Only one thing, Boro. I also don't agree with Gothmog being an Orc (as I pointed out before) - but actually, Sauron gave the Orcs important tasks. I don't think that Sauron would give such a complicated and strategic-mind-needing thing like command of an entire army to the hands of an Orc, but I mean that Sauron entrusted for example Grishnakh with search for the Ringbearer (this is one thing which always puzzled me the most!).

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Also, to note Gothmog is in command of a group of Men. Would Men really want to be led by an Orc, and would Sauron put an Orc to lead his men? I doubt it.

That's a good point. I'd stand for it. And one more thing - the name Gothmog, I think, was taken by someone who had some knowledge of its meaning - of its prior possessor. I doubt it was a given name. Rather - and this I find quite likely - some relentless Man leader who rose to high rank because of his ferociousness and brutality and non-questioning Sauron's orders, acquired this "nickname", or maybe he heard in the "high society" (like on a banquet in Barad-Dur where just the high officers were normally allowed) the story of Gothmog (which was narrated by the Mouth of Sauron like a funny history of old and Gothmog would normally never have heard of it) and he said himself "yeah, that's cool, from now on I'll call myself Gothmog".

[The Sixth Wizard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

black númenorean - that's too high for him. Although after some thinking about it he might be something like that, from the first sight his name does not fit with it, I imagine something more "rough" than númenoreans (even black)

Too 'rough' a name? Morgoth entrusted the chief of his highest demons to be named 'Gothmog', and you think it is too rough a name?!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am not a native English speaker, but I was under the assumption that "rough" means, well, something like a rock, you know. I don't see why Gothmog the Balrog, hard, cruel etc., wouldn't be called like that. But what I intended to say by it... how to say it the best... well, for example: I wouldn't name an Elf "Rughagrog", as well as I wouldn't name an Orc "Lin-Lothiellin". The same way I wouldn't name a black Númenorean Gothmog. This is only my opinion however.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am not a native English speaker, but I was under the assumption that "rough" means, well, something like a rock, you know. I don't see why Gothmog the Balrog, hard, cruel etc., wouldn't be called like that. But what I intended to say by it... how to say it the best... well, for example: I wouldn't name an Elf "Rughagrog", as well as I wouldn't name an Orc "Lin-Lothiellin". The same way I wouldn't name a black Númenorean Gothmog. This is only my opinion however.

Hmm. Yes, I suppose that makes sense. Although the Mouth of Sauron is a Black Numenorean and 'Sauron' means 'abhorrent'.

[Gordis]

I think Gothmog was a nazgul.

Let us look at the name itself.

IMHO "Gothmog" is hardly a name a loving mom and dad would give their newborn child.

Suppose Gothmog II was a mortal Man. Even if the parents were late Third Age Black Numenoreans - Morgoth worshippers, the name is too lofty for even a very noble Black Numenorean child. Gothmog the First had been almost equal (and maybe equal?) to Sauron. Who knows if the two Maiar, Morgoth's lieutenants, were on good terms back in the First age? The parents wouldn't risk the Dark Lord's displeasure naming their child after such a high being.

Suppose Gothmog II was a nazgul. The parents would be mid-Second Age Men, at the time when very few, or none of the Numenoreans worshipped Morgoth. The ME "barbarian" natives often did, it seems, but I am not sure that the "barbarians" would have enough knowledge of old lore to know about Gothmog I.

So, most likely, it was NOT a name received at birth. IMHO Gothmog II earned his name as a reward by his long service to the Dark Lord. And that more likely makes him a nazgul, than one of the mortal servants. Too grand a name, probably given by Sauron himself.

As for the nazgul names, we know but one - Khamul, the Shadow of the East.
But I have a suspicion, that Khamul actually translates as "Eastern Shadow" "Kha-" like in "Khand" meaning "East" . If I am right, than it must be the name that Khamul got while he was already a nazgul, not his birth-name.

Very probably all of the nazgul in the course of their very long lives got many names, much like Olorin-Mithrandir-Gandalf-Incanus, or Aragorn-Strider-Thorongil-Elessar.

So, I think, the name itself gives us few clues, only shows the wielder's high status, which we know already.

Gothmog was no orc surely, he held too high a position, second in command in the Mordorian army. Orcs sometimes commanded orcs (like Shagrat of Cirith Ungol) but hardly any orc ever commanded Men. And from the quote above, we see that Gothmog has become the head of the Mordor army with authority over Easterlings, Variags and Southrons - some of them allies, with their own kings present.
Alternatively, he could have been a mortal Man, but I doubt that in the city of the Ringwraiths a motral Man could hold a higher position than 6 of the resident nazgul. Also I doubt that Easterling and Southron allies would have been happy to bow to a mortal underling.

An additional argument might be this:

In an immediately rejected version of the passage in which the new hosts streaming out of Osgiliath are described, it was said of the Black Captain: 'He was gone, and the Nazgul in fear had fled to Mordor bearing ill tidings'; but this was lost in the rewriting of the passage where appears Gothmog lieutenant of Morgul - HOME 8

If Gothmog were meant to be a nazgul, then the rejection of the sentence about all the remaining Nazgul fleeing seems explained. Also if Tolkien put Gothmog in while editing the sentence about the nazgul, it explains why he failed to mention that Gothmog was one of them: at the moment it seemed obvious to Tolkien.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

So, most likely, it was NOT a name received at birth. IMHO Gothmog II earned his name as a reward by his long service to the Dark Lord. And that more likely makes him a nazgul, than one of the mortal servants. Too grand a name, probably given by Sauron himself.

If you look up I believe I proposed another option, and that's that he gave the name to himself. For a barbarian leader, that wouldn't be unimaginable; and also, look at the parallel with Mouth of Sauron.

Originally Posted by Gordis

But I have a suspicion, that Khamul actually translates as "Eastern Shadow" "Kha-" like in "Khand" meaning "East" .

Huh? May I ask where did you take the assumption that Khand means East? As far as I know from all Elven languages, "east" is Rómen or Rhun, respectively, but Khand, no way.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Alternatively, he could have been a mortal Man, but I doubt that in the city of the Ringwraiths a motral Man could hold a higher position than 6 of the resident nazgul. Also I doubt that Easterling and Southron allies would have been happy to bow to a mortal underling.

And what about Mouth of Sauron? He was high in rank, and I believe if Gothmog was a Man, he would be probably something like MoS. And it's not unimaginable to see Easterlings and so bowing to him... and another thing; the Nazgul did not often lead the armies to war. Except for WK, who was leader also in another fields, there is no remark about the others leading armies. And we know the Nazgul were flying above Pelennor (and maybe were somewhere else as well at that time), but the second in rank after WK could have been some non-Nazgul Gothmog without any problems.