Why take a body? Why make a Ring?

[littlemanpoet]

So Maiar (such as Sauron) want bodies (at least as clothing) in order to interact in (and/or control) a material world.

And Sauron wanted a Ring in order to control a certain collection of other Rings. He also knew that Ring would be virtually impossible for anyone to destroy. However, he never expected to be destroyed himself, and never expected the Ring to be destroyed. I think that that much can be read from Gandalf's words in the Council of Elrond and other parts of LotR. That is, Sauron's and the Ring's near-invincibility are at best by-products of its making. So if Sauron didn't make the Ring with great concern for his own and the Ring's destruction, then the remaining motivation was domination of Arda. Fair enough.

Why would these Maiar be so bent on affecting material Arda? I suppose the only answer provided from our vast resources of Tolkieniana, is pride, envy, ambition and all that for the evil Maiar, and love and its related virtues for the good Maiar.

It should be pointed out that the Ring is, unless heated, unobtrusive, though made of gold. So it appears unextraordinary.

I think Folwren's speculative answer bears some consideration as well.

And much thanks to Raynor for providing the background information from the various works.

The Ring served to focus Sauron's power in terms of the other rings, but not only. There seems to be some ability to affect others from great distances, such as whole armies. Did that come from the Ring, or just from Sauron's power? Was Sauron's native power increased by the fact of the Ring? That is, let's say Sauron = 7 and the Ring = 6; does it make sense within the way LotR was sub-created that Sauron increases, by virtue of the Ring, from a 7 to a 10? ...such that even while dispossessed of the Ring, he functions effectively as a 5 (instead of the expected 7-6=1)? (the numbers are of course arbitrary and meant strictly for illustration).

[doug*platypus]

Hello again littlemanpoet and Saucepan Man! It's been a long time since I posted on The Barrow Downs, but I remember you both fondly. Thanks, Raynor for providing those quotes!

I believe that the Valar and Maiar were fascinated with the Children of Ilúvatar and took bodies to interact with them more fully, and on a more personal level. That at least would explain why they took bodies after contact had been made by Oromë with the children. As for before that, the theory that has already been expounded as to wishing to exercise control over the physical matter of Arda seems sufficient.

Interesting that these demi-gods did not wish to remain aloof from the children, but sought a peaceful co-habitation in Valinor, at least with the Eldar. I think that they most likely also wished to experience all the sensations that the Eldar could. Why would anyone wish to have a physical rather than solely metaphysical embodiment? I'm talking about eating, drinking, perhaps also sports, and other pleasures of the flesh which I won't delve into further to avoid getting banned!

As for the reason behind the creation of a ring, I would guess that this was necessary in order to control the other Rings of Power. Like controls like, kind of thing. If you want to beat other cars in a race, you build a faster car, rather than an airplane. I think Sauron's main purpose in creating the One Ring was to exercise control over all that was created with the others, rather than simply to increase his own innate power. Surely it also would have pleased him to beat Celebrimbor at his own game. Sauron was, after all, of the Maiar of Aulë, and we may guess that he was a master craftsman in his own right. He would have taken great pride in his creation, and may have been the first being to call It preciouss?

[Raynor]

Was Sauron's native power increased by the fact of the Ring? That is, let's say Sauron = 7 and the Ring = 6; does it make sense within the way LotR was sub-created that Sauron increases, by virtue of the Ring, from a 7 to a 10? ...such that even while dispossessed of the Ring, he functions effectively as a 5 (instead of the expected 7-6=1)? (the numbers are of course arbitrary and meant strictly for illustration).?

To address both bolded issues, I think that Letter #131 comes in handy :

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.

this source also reinforces the previous argument various posters have made about Sauron's intent with the ring:

This was the essential weakness [the possessing of the ring by someone else] he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.

Edit:
Concerning the statement in letter #131 that Sauron was not diminished without the ring, it seems to be at odds with LotR:

Originally Posted by Shadow of the past, FotR

This is the One Ring that he lost many ages ago, to the great weakening of his power.

unless the first quote means that the _potential_ power was not dimished.

[Lalwendë]

The Osanwe-kenta should illuminate a lot about this question. It has a long note about the wself-arraying of the Ainur, and the main point is that the longer one of them takes on a hroa, the more of a 'habit' this becomes:

if a "spirit" (that is, not one of those embodied by creation) uses a hroa for the furtherance of its own personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds itself increasingly difficult to operate without the hroa.

It also specifically mentions Melkor and his quest:

to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had disspiated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen.....So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see:they became wedded to the forms of their evild deeds, and if these bodies wree taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed. (Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular...)

And this also applies to Sauron. We know that Sauron created the Ring when he was still 'hale' in his hroa, even beautiful in the form of Annatar; it was much later that his bodily form was harmed and he had to lie in hiding while he regained his strength or hroa. It seems that Sauron may have watched what happened to Melkor and learned a lesson, so he attempted to put some of his power into the Ring in order to maintain it.

Originally Posted by lmp

It should be pointed out that the Ring is, unless heated, unobtrusive, though made of gold. So it appears unextraordinary.

I wouldn't call any gold ring 'unobtrusive' as if you saw one lying on the ground or indeed fished one out of a river, then you would take it. Had he made a brass curtain ring then I think it would have gone unnoticed! However the question remains as to whether he did want it to go unnoticed? Of course, Gold was the metal into which Melkor had infused his power.

The other point arising from the Osanwe-kenta is to do with why Sauron made the Ring, and more to the point, why he helped make the other Rings. From the Sil there is evidence that the three Elven Rings (made in secret) made their bearers able to 'perceive' the One Ring, and we must presume this worked the other way too:

As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be the master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.

So this reveals something of the relationship between the Rings, and Osanwe-kenta makes it fall into place as being linked to sanwe. And the bearers of the Three must presumably have had to exercise considerable unwill in preventing Sauron (while he bore the One Ring, at least) from intruding on their thoughts.

Note now that Melkor, due to the right of the incarnate to utilise unwill, i.e. to close their minds to interrogation by others through use of sanwe, was unable to enter every mind. Some he did enter as they did not choose to use their unwill, but others remained shut. In Osanwe-kenta we are told that instead, he used language to enter these minds. Language, the skill which in many (most?) cases made the use of sanwe redundant.

in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not bettered, scarce equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters.

And what is that special feature of the One Ring? The words, the Black Speech, written in Tengwar, which are only revealed by Fire. A spell of sanwe, written in words, mastered with fire? The Ring Of Words indeed!

[littlemanpoet]

Thus we come to a rather fascinating set of concepts to set beside each other.

A spirit is more powerful than a being born of flesh. Note any Maia as compared to an Elf or Man. However, that spirit is, as unbodied, unable to have any effect upon material things, both living and unliving, other than by influence of thought.

A spirit can cause fear (not fëar), doubt, confusion, weariness, and the like, but cannot actually stop a bodied being in the road unless by influencing another bodied being to get in the first one's way.

Why would a spirit want to take on flesh? There is a good reason, and an evil reason. The good reason is to sub-create and enjoy; the evil reason is to possess and control. This is, of course, an oversimplification, but nevertheless harks back to some of the primary themes of Tolkien.

Funny, humans are faced with the same choice as are the Maiar in LotR: subcreate and enjoy, or possess and control.

However, Sauron does both in the making of the Ring. He sub-creates in order to possess and control, and finds his pleasure (enjoyment) in torturing others that he possesses and controls. So subcreation is at base what humans (both in LotR and in real life) are meant for; the choice is whether to do so for enjoyment and sharing (in all the best senses) or to possess and control.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by lmp

A spirit is more powerful than a being born of flesh. Note any Maia as compared to an Elf or Man. However, that spirit is, as unbodied, unable to have any effect upon material things, both living and unliving, other than by influence of thought.

A spirit can cause fear (not fëar), doubt, confusion, weariness, and the like, but cannot actually stop a bodied being in the road unless by influencing another bodied being to get in the first one's way.

Why would a spirit want to take on flesh? There is a good reason, and an evil reason. The good reason is to sub-create and enjoy; the evil reason is to possess and control. This is, of course, an oversimplification, but nevertheless harks back to some of the primary themes of Tolkien.

And the Army of the Dead achieve what they do through simple fear (not green slime, as seen in the films ); the point presumably being that to all those on Middle-earth, even bad guys in league with Sauron, a ghost is an unnatural and terrifying thing.

We know that for Elves, to be a houseless Fea is a bad thing, an unnatural state. Tolkien says that not only are houseless Fear vulnerable to corruption but they are likely to turn to at the very least tricksy things (such as hiding in and 'possessing' trees and rocks) and at worst evil things. The only concept that Elves have of Hell is that they remain in the Halls of Mandos, houseless until Arda ends, though for some, this may in fact be a pleasure compared to life, e.g. Miriel, so Hell may in fact not be the appropriate term (how can we condemn her just for her suffering in giving birth to Feanor?!). So for some, at least, there is something slightly 'wrong' in wanting to be houseless, or a 'punishment' in being forced to be that way.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

However, that spirit is, as unbodied, unable to have any effect upon material things, both living and unliving, other than by influence of thought.

In the Sil it is stated:

Originally Posted by Of the Sun and Moon and the hiding of Valinor, Silmarillion

It is told that after the flight of Melkor the Valar sat long unmoved upon their thrones in the Ring of Doom; but they were not idle, as Feanor declared in the folly of his heart. For the Valar may work many things with thought rather than with hands, and without voices in silence they may hold council one with another.

Now, considering other evidences already given, it is safe to say that they could such influences even if they didn't have their hroar (perhaps even better). Also, concerning Olorin:

Originally Posted by Of the maiar, Valaquenta, Silmarillion

But of Olorin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.

So, even Olorin, 'just' a Maia, is able to do certain actions apparently without a body. In the letters, Sauron was able to carry his ring with him from the sinking of Numenor all the way to Middle Earth, while being disembodied.

Originally Posted by lmp

However, Sauron does both in the making of the Ring. He sub-creates in order to possess and control

I would say that the correct term would be "Machine" instead of subcreation, as a term indicating Power/Magic as opposed to Art, which is a reflection of Eru's will.

Originally Posted by Lal

The only concept that Elves have of Hell is that they remain in the Halls of Mandos

Err, I certainly doubt that the halls of Mandos would ever come close to the Hells of Iron - Angband, which many of the elves would have experiened long before the halls of Mandos. Not to mention that in Mandos, Nienna brings pity, endurance, hope, strength and wisdom, cf Of the Valar.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by doug*platypus

Hello again littlemanpoet and Saucepan Man!

Hello there doug. Good to see you back and posting.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Now, considering other evidences already given, it is safe to say that they could such influences even if they didn't have their hroar (perhaps even better).

Good point. Perhpas it is more accurate to say that a physical body allowed them to interact with, rather than influence, the physical world.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Interesting topic indeed. . .

About the physical form, it would make sence that lesser maia would need it to really interact with the world. . .But surely the Valar and others should be powerful enough to vield their power even with out physical shape. I just think there must be more to it than interacting.

It seem like the Valar and some Maiar was perfectly capable of "shaping" Arda without physical form, the only reason for them seem to have been the love for the children as far as I can see. . .(which might not be very far). Now Melkor envied them and as said before it would only be natural for his subjects to do likewise.

I belive I belive Ulmo hardly ever had a physical form, but still managed to send messages to Elves and Men.

Why did Maia Melian have a physical shape? It could not have been to interact with elves. . .maybe so that she could interact with nature? Still it does not seem like the right explanation to me.

I guess my conclution would be that the Valar and Maia could use their powers and send messages to living beings without a physical shape. They would however need it to have direct conversations and maybe(I am not sure about this one) to inflict physical pain on them. . .

hmmm the Ring.

I don't really have any theory about Sauron's motives, but I have a few thoughts about Tolkien's.

Rings have always been a symbol of might.
Mighty kings would give his vassals rings, not only would it show the riches he possesed, but it would also symbolise the power he held over these.
Sauron does more or less the same, just in a more cunning way. The rings he gives out gives him the power rather than be a show of power.

btw. Another powerful Ring-Lord worth Mentioning would be Odin!