Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[Boromir88]

I'll first start here:

I would appreciate it if you would be kinder in your remarks.

That I do apologize for, it looks harsh and I should have used better wording. From the post before it looked like your argument was that Frodo was stronger (as far as will went) than Aragorn because the Witch-King feared him more than Aragorn. But, I don't think that's what UT was implying because the Witch-King wasn't afraid of Frodo's strength he mustered up. He did figure that Frodo had to be strong enough to get past the Barrow-wights and have the sword of the Westernesse. Also was taken back by Frodo striking at him and that he had called upon Elbereth...but he wasn't afraid of Frodo because he was comparable to Aragorn, or greater than Aragorn. He was afraid of Frodo because of what Frodo possessed (a blade that could kill him) and he used the name of Elbereth. (For which instead of looking in my book I went to a quick reference and missed the rest of it).

I think also it still shows Frodo was terrified of the Witch-King (and this can be supported from the encounter in LOTR)...but the Witch-King was just taken back by Frodo striking at him (and other factors). Frodo acted like a person stuck in a corner...he was still scared out of his boots (err...feet), but he was backed into a situation where he had to lash out...out of fear:

Terror overcame Pippin and Merry, and they threw themselves flat on the ground. Sam shrank to Frodo's side. Frodo was hardly less terrified than his companions; he was quaking as if he was bitter cold, but his terror was swallowed up in a sudden temptation to put on the Ring....
At that moment Frodo threw himself forward on the ground, and he heard himself crying aloud: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! At the same time he struck at the feet of his enemy.~A Knife in the Dark

I'm not arguing that Pippin had a stronger will than Frodo's, as you show, what Frodo accomplished probably could not have been by anyone else during this time. But I don't see how Sauron would know based upon strength of will that it wasn't Frodo on the other side of the palantir, even had the Witch-King told him the full account. Because:

1. Frodo was still terrified of the Witch-King.
2. I don't think it's reasonable to think that since this encounter and the Witch-King was scared by the events that took place, Sauron would believe any hobbit would be able to contend with his will. Whether it was a hobbit who was able to survive the Barrow-wight and resist the Witch-King or not, neither of them are Sauron. Sauron didn't seem to fear too many things other than someone possibly getting the Ring and challenging him.

Sauron caused him to suffer cruely, so that he felt he was falling to pieces, and I believe he was aware of his effect on the hobbit.

Sauron could probably see Pippin was quite terrified by him, but again Frodo was terrified of the Witch-King. Why would Sauron believe that since this hobbit was scared out of his mind it couldn't have been the Ringbearer then?

My point wasn't about resisting the urge to use the palantir, but to resist the lure towards Barad-dur once the palantir was used.

Why would Frodo be able to resist the pull to Barad-dur? He put on the Ring several times. Frodo had shown that he did not have the will to resist the Ring's pull and the Ring was nearly revealed to Sauron because of Frodo (putting it on to escape Boromir):

'The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that..'.~The White Rider

The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between the piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger.~Breaking of the Fellowship

Knowing this, why would Frodo have the will to resist the pull to Barad-dur (through the Palantir), he didn't have the will to resist the Ring's pull to Sauron. And even if he did, what would make Sauron believe that he could do such a thing?

Sauce pan: In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information.

I think this still remains unadressed. Also, to add, I haven't seen other suggestions as far as what is it that Sauron believed Saruman had (that wasn't his to have) and a Nazgul was coming to get immediately.

[Raynor]

I don't think it's reasonable to think that since this encounter and the Witch-King was scared by the events that took place, Sauron would believe any hobbit would be able to contend with his will.

Well, this would imply that Sauron thought the ring passed from one hobbit to another; I don't think that he has reasons to believe that. As far as he is concerned, the ringbearer survived from one attack to another and was still carrying the ring.

Sauron could probably see Pippin was quite terrified by him, but again Frodo was terrified of the Witch-King. Why would Sauron believe that since this hobbit was scared out of his mind it couldn't have been the Ringbearer then?

I believe it was more than fear: Sauron actually controlled Pippin through the palantir. Would he expected Frodo to be as easily bent to his will? Imo, if he trusted witch-king's report - no.

He put on the Ring several times. Frodo had shown that he did not have the will to resist the Ring's pull and the Ring was nearly revealed to Sauron because of Frodo (putting it on to escape Boromir)

I don't think that that this second part of your argument is related to the first one, since, in this case, Frodo didn't put on the ring out of weakness, but of necessity.

Knowing this, why would Frodo have the will to resist the pull to Barad-dur (through the Palantir), he didn't have the will to resist the Ring's pull to Sauron.

As a matter of personal opinion, it is easier for Sauron to control someone who has the ring, even if from afar, than to control someone through the palantir. It seems to me that our debate on Frodo and Pippin has moved this thread away from other members' interest, perhaps we could continue this on another thread.

Sauce pan: In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information.

We know that Sauron was already obssessed with the ring; I don't think it is unreasonable for him to extend that to matters related to recovering the ring.

Also, to add, I haven't seen other suggestions as far as what is it that Sauron believed Saruman had (that wasn't his to have) and a Nazgul was coming to get immediately.

I expressed my opinion, in post #56, that:
In Unfinished Tales, The hunt for the ring, it is stated that Sauron was in great haste and fear when he heard that his enemies have captured Gollum. Apparently, he fears for anyone who has access to those with relevant information about the ring. Sure, he wants information for himself, but he also wants to hold off others from obtaining that information. I think that in this "others" we can safely include Saruman, of whom Sauron became aware that his servants waylaid or misled his own agents.
IIRC, in the Reader's Companion, Sauron was displeased at the witch-king's bringing his enemies closer to the ring, so this was becoming an increasing concern for him. To address your reply to my post:

he actually believed he (or Saruman) had something else of importance that wasn't Saruman's to have.

I don't think that we have already established that. If anything, neither Sauron nor Gandalf make _any_ referrence to the ring.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Raynor

If anything, neither Sauron nor Gandalf make _any_ referrence to the ring.

That depends upon what construction you put on Sauron's use of the word "it" when addressing Pippin. The logical construction or the illogical one.

As for the other strand of this debate, I really don't think that there is any solid basis for assuming that Sauron was able in this encounter sufficiently to assess the Hobbit's physical and mental characteristics so as to distinguish him from another Hobbit. Sauron was indifferent to Hobbits, save on the subject of the Ring. His only interest in them arose from his knowledge that one of them bore his Ring.

If we are to believe Gandalf, we know that Sauron wanted this Hobbit for more than just information. Had he believed Pippin not to be the Ringbearer, then surely his only interest in him would have been his information value. Yet Gandalf believed that he wanted this Hobbit urgently, was obsessed with this Hobbit, and not just for information.

Had Sauron realised that Pippin was not the Ringbearer, he would have questioned him there and then as to the location and situation of the Ringebearer. He did not, because he made an erroneous assumption. An error that he would, Gandalf believed, take some time in discovering.

And just to stick up for Pippin for a moment, it is to his credit that he did not spill the beans there and then to Sauron. Knowing that Sauron wanted the Ring, and being subject to the will of Sauron during the encounter, he did pretty well to avoid doing so.

[Raynor]

The logical construction or the illogical one.

I am glad you are finally admitting being wrong

Had he believed Pippin not to be the Ringbearer, then surely his only interest in him would have been his information value. Yet Gandalf believed that he wanted this Hobbit urgently, was obsessed with this Hobbit, and not just for information.

Ok. What do you think about my argument that he also didn't want others to access that information? His warning to Saruman seems to follow that line. And perhaps this has been argued before, but I don't think he would refer to the most powerful object on Middle Earth as a dainty.

Had Sauron realised that Pippin was not the Ringbearer, he would have questioned him there and then as to the location and situation of the Ringebearer.

Yes, but that would have exposed that information to Saruman too. Why give him the benefit of his power?

And just to stick up for Pippin for a moment, it is to his credit that he did not spill the beans there and then to Sauron. Knowing that Sauron wanted the Ring, and being subject to the will of Sauron during the encounter, he did pretty well to avoid doing so.

I don't think it has anything to do with Pippin; it was all down to Sauron's fancy. Pippin lost all control on what to say or not; if Sauron wanted him to reveal something, he would have said so, on the spot.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Yes, but that would have exposed that information to Saruman too. Why give him the benefit of his power?

I was rather of the impression that the conversation was not one that others present would necessarily be able to hear.

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't think it has anything to do with Pippin; it was all down to Sauron's fancy.

Under pressure from one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth, Pippin could have blurted out everything he knew to make the eye and the voice go away. He did not.

Originally Posted by Raynor

... if Sauron wanted him to reveal something, he would have said so, on the spot.

Precisely. Given how important finding the Ring was to Sauron, don't you think that, if he did not believe this Hobbit to be the Ringbearer, he would have asked straight away about the Ring?

[Boromir88]

Yes, but that would have exposed that information to Saruman too. Why give him the benefit of his power?~Raynor

I've never heard that before, but it certainly makes sense to me. If Sauron's number 1 concern was getting the Ring back, I would guess his second concern was others falling on information about the Ring...especially someone like Saruman. So, are you arguing that 'dainty' and 'it' are not necessarily referring to Pippin himself, but information about the Ring that Pippin has and then could reveal to Saruman (or others)...which would cause just a little doubt and fear in Sauron? If so, that's an interesting spin on things and never heard it before (that's a good thing) and I can see it making sense.

As you say, Sauron would not want others to get any information about the Ring. If he believes Pippin has this information he will not only be useful for information, but Sauron would want him immediately so he didn't give any away to Saruman (or anyone else for that matter). I'll say if (because I still think he believed Pippin had the ring...which I will get to shortly), but if Sauron believed Pippin didn't have the Ring than it would still make sense.

Sauron began getting worried about Saruman and was wondering what he was sticking his hands in. If Sauron believed Pippin didn't have the Ring he would have to figure Saruman would figure this out (if he hadn't already). Then Saruman would begin to question Pippin the whereabouts of the Ring and this would fall under great concern from Sauron. So, I think that's a reasonable explanation, that Sauron didn't just want information from Pippin, he wanted to make sure that information didn't get into anyone's hands but his own.

Precisely. Given how important finding the Ring was to Sauron, don't you think that, if he did not believe this Hobbit to be the Ringbearer, he would have asked straight away about the Ring?~Sauce

Good point...from what Gandalf says:

"You have been saved, and all your friends too, mainly by good fortune, as it is called. You cannot count on it a second time. If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But, he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly."

This should support Raynor's valid point that it really wasn't a matter that Pippin resisted telling Sauron information...but it was a matter of time. Pippin had escaped just in time, but there is certainly no doubt in Gandalf (nor me) had Pippin been questioned about the Ring he would have spilled the beans.

Though I think that Gandalf believed Sauron thought Pippin had the Ring and he was going to use this to their advantage. As he puts it:

'Not yet,' said Gandalf. 'There remains a short while of doubt, which we must use. The Enemy, it is clear, thought that the Stone was in Orthanc - why should he not? And that therefore the hobbit was captive there, driven to look in the glass for his torment by Saruman.'

I think that sentence bolded above is interesting. At least Gandalf believes Sauron is facing some doubt right now (and I would agree with Gandalf here). Sauron was in doubt, about what? The ring? I think so, we know for sure that Sauron believed (though it wasn't true) that the stone was in Orthanc and Pippin was captive there...he did not doubt that he was just wrong. So, what is it that Gandalf believed Sauron did doubt? It would either be, does this hobbit have my ring? or as Raynor argues thinking that others will come across important information on where it is, (which would also fill him with doubt) Pippin got away at the 'fortunate' time as Sauron's head must be spinning after this point. And I think he would even be filled with more doubt once Aragorn reveals himself in the palantir. This causes Sauron to attack at Gondor sooner than he had hoped for, before his full strength was mustered.

[Raynor]

I was rather of the impression that the conversation was not one that others present would necessarily be able to hear.

You may be right that Saruman can't listen to their mind to mind conversation over the palantir, however, we should note that in the text it is said: "his lips moved soundlessly for a while". I think it is reasonable to believe that poor Pippin was lip-synching to the messages he transmited to Sauron.

Given how important finding the Ring was to Sauron, don't you think that, if he did not believe this Hobbit to be the Ringbearer, he would have asked straight away about the Ring?

This may be explained by the above issue.

Under pressure from one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth, Pippin could have blurted out everything he knew to make the eye and the voice go away. He did not.

As I argued previously, what he did or did not say was stricly in relation to what Sauron asked. I opine that his free will was suspended in that conversation.

Edit:
Cross-posted with Boromir88:
You raise an interesting point: indeed, it would be foolish for Saruman to show the hobbit just to tease, if he didn't already have the ring. Then again, it may be that Gandalf left out the possibility of Saruman "trading" the hobbit, even though without the ring, only with information.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I think it is reasonable to believe that poor Pippin was lip-synching to the messages he transmited to Sauron.

So now Saruman is an expert lip-reader too ...?

I am sure that even Sauron would have acknowledged that Saruman was quite capable himself of extracting such information as Pippin had. If he had thought that Pippin did not have the Ring, but information only, I am sure that he would not have hesitated to ask of the Ring's whereabouts, particularly as the more logical assumption would be that Saruman had already extracted this information.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Then again, it may be that Gandalf left out the possibility of Saruman "trading" the hobbit, even though without the ring, only with information.

So Gandalf is fallible, then?

If we are assuming that Gandalf's has got it right, then it is clear that Sauron was incredibly eager to get hold of Pippin, and not just for information. I really cannot see any reason for Sauron's eagereness, bordering on obsession, in this regard if he did not think that Pippin had the Ring.

If we are to believe that perhaps Gandalf got it wrong, then it all comes down to your interpretation of the words "it" and "dainty", as used by Sauron.

OK, I'm all argued out on this point, and merely repeating myself. All I really add is that, whenever I have read this passage, I have always interpreted the references to "it" and "dainty" to mean the Ring, and therefore that Sauron mistook Pippin for the Ringbearer. I am not about to change that long-held view without very clear evidence, which has not been forthcoming thus far.