Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

You are right there Sauce about the reliance on assumption that you and Misty Undy are engaging in -- which is why I forsake such things and cite once more the passage provided by MU above:

"If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.

So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger."

To Gandalf's mind the situation is pretty clear: Sauron wants and is referring to Pippin as the thing to be sent to Mordor; and there is no mention anywhere here of the Ring. Gandalf says that Sauron wants "information", "you", "you" and that he is consumed with "the voice and face of the hobbit" and that he'll be angry that Saruman has withheld "the captive".

Given that this is Gandalf speaking, I'm inclined to follow his lead and take his interpretation of the situation. Now if you want to try and discredit Gandalf you may go right ahead and try...

[Boromir88]

Given that this is Gandalf speaking, I'm inclined to follow his lead and take his interpretation of the situation. Now if you want to try and discredit Gandalf you may go right ahead and try...

That's not too hard...I mean after all it's not that difficult to prove an old crazy man has no idea what he's talking about.

Afterall, here was the guy that called Treebeard the oldest creature that was on the earth and the man who wanted Gimli (who had never been in Moria before) to help him navigate through the Mines.

[Raynor]

here was the guy that called Treebeard the oldest creature that was on the earth

I don't think that's a settled issue.

the man who wanted Gimli (who had never been in Moria before) to help him navigate through the Mines.

I wouldn't say that's over the top. As Gimli states in The ring goes south, the images of Moria were set in many images of metal and stone, and in many songs and tales.

[Boromir88]

My last post was in no way intended to be taken seriously...hence the use of the smiley.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Professor Hedgethistle

Given that this is Gandalf speaking, I'm inclined to follow his lead and take his interpretation of the situation. Now if you want to try and discredit Gandalf you may go right ahead and try...

I wouldn't dream of it. Although Gandalf is not infallible ...

Nevertheless, Gandalf's words are not incompatible at all with my understanding. I refer the learned professor to my post #32. Sauron did not want information only. He wanted the Hobbit. Urgently, and with great anticipation. Why? Because he thought that the Hobbit had the Ring.

Perhaps those asserting the contrary case would care to explain why, if he did not believe the Hobbit to have the Ring, Sauron would become so obsessed with the Hobbit (such that his dark mind would become filled with his voice and face), why he awaited the Hobbit with such expectation and what exactly the error was that Gandalf was referring to.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Perhaps those asserting the contrary case would care to explain why, if he did not believe the Hobbit to have the Ring, Sauron would become so obsessed with the Hobbit

Because he knows that the Hobbit (with the Ring) was travelling with three other Hobbits who probably have a good idea of where their friend is at (with said Ring).

why he awaited the Hobbit with such expectation

To extract certain information (see above) and, well, he enjoys tormenting innocents.

and what exactly the error was that Gandalf was referring to.

That Sauron thought Pippin was, and I quote "captive" in Isengard and not riding free with Gandalf with Isengard in smoking ruins behind them.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fordim

Because he knows that the Hobbit (with the Ring) was travelling with three other Hobbits who probably have a good idea of where their friend is at (with said Ring).

Originally Posted by Fordim

To extract certain information (see above) ...

But, as Gandalf states, he did not only want information. Regardless of the Hobbit's information value, he wanted the Hobbit. He was obsessed with the Hobbit. Why?

Originally Posted by Fordim

... and, well, he enjoys tormenting innocents.

I don't doubt that he does. But he was particularly excited about the prospect of entertaining this particular Hobbit at Barad-Dur. Why?

Originally Posted by Fordim

That Sauron thought Pippin was, and I quote "captive" in Isengard and not riding free with Gandalf with Isengard in smoking ruins behind them.

Well, it's not going to take him long to clear up that particular misunderstanding. A Nazgul was en route to Isengard even as Gandalf was speaking. Yet Gandalf says that it may be some time before Sauron learns of his error. What error could that be?

[Boromir88]

I think that the error in question was Sauron believing that the hobbit and the palantir were in Saruman's control.~Raynor

But why would the error be about the palantir when there is no mention of the crystal ball throughout the quote Mr. Underhill supplied?

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.

The error has to do with Pippin, nothing at all with the palantir. Gandalf thinks Sauron has made an error with Pippin. Sauron's mind is filled with Pippin's voice and image, and this is where Sauron has erred (according to Gandalf). This whole matter is about Pippin, not Sauron thinking Saruman still had the palantir, he cares about getting Pippin. So what is this error that Gandalf thinks Sauron has made and it will take him a while to recognize it?

Well, I think we can say it's safe to assume that Sauron wouldn't want Pippin to simply for the pleasure of torturing a little hobbit and mounting him in his room (ehem: Fordim). Sauron may have taken pleasure in making people work for him, but he's got thousands of Orcs to do this, and I doubt he's going to send one of his Nazgul to Isengard to go fetch him a toy to play with. Isn't there bunnies or leprecauns around or something?

Also, according to Gandalf, Pippin wasn't only wanted for information (so there would have to be at least two reasons Sauron hoped to acquire when receiving Pippin). So going to get Pippin either Sauron wanted:

1. Information and a fun hobbit to play with
2. Information and the Ring
(Or I guess you could say)
3. Information, the Ring, and a hobbit to play with.

Now why would Gandalf feel that Sauron made an error in choosing Pippin to be tortured? It just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Sauron is now filled with the mind and voice of the Hobbit, and Gandalf says this is where Sauron has made his error. I really don't see Gandalf saying Sauron made an error in his choice of who he wanted to torture...maybe Gandalf thought Pippin wouldn't be all that fun to torture, and plus Pippin's was his to torture? Therefor, I see it has to be an item that Sauron believed Pippin had (or Saruman had already taken from him), and hoped to get when he got Pippin.

One might think why doesn't Sauron just say...The Ring is not for you, Saruman! Why doesn't he just say that...instead of being all coded and saying 'it' all the time? I think that's just it, Sauron wants to disguise his intentions, eventhough if they really are quite obvious...or at least obvious enough that it appears Gandalf picked up on what Sauron wanted from Pippin. Not just information, but something else. What else could Sauron want from a Hobbit beside the Ring or a slave/torture person? However, it really doesn't make a lot of sense that Sauron wanted Pippin so bad, because there was a lack of a labor force, or a lack of people to torture, in Mordor that he needed to get this Hobbit right away, and he needed a Nazgul to go get this Hobbit as soon as possible.