Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

***Mister Underhill*** · 10-26-2006, 04:19 PM

The same dehumanizing impulse that leads the predator to view his prey as an "it", the way Gollum does with Bilbo: "Is it nice, my preciousss? Is it juicy? Is it scrumptiously crunchable?"

***Mithadan*** · 10-26-2006, 04:52 PM

OK let's review what Sauron knew and what Tolkien, directly or indirectly, implies.

Sauron knew the Ring, carried by Frodo, reached Rivendell. He probably knew through spies that Frodo did not return to the Shire, though this is speculation. He knows Gandalf reached Caradhras after Gandalf conjures a fire. He knows a group passes through Moria and that the group includes Hobbits because the Orcs of Moria, whether they were free agents or not (unlikely) would pass this information on to the Mordor Orcs. He knows the Fellowship reaches Lorien. He is actively hunting for it when the Fellowship leaves and his Orcs have specific instructions to capture and not loot Hobbits. Grishnakh apparently knows about the Ring and tries to find it on Merry and Pippin. Sauron at the very least suspected that Frodo was still bearing the Ring.

Now, what does Tolkien imply? He makes much of the fact that Pippin revealed he was a Hobbit but not his name and was not questioned by Sauron about the Fellowship or the location of the Ring. Sauron was so excited he forgot to ask these questions. So excited about a Hobbit? No. He thought Saruman had found the Ring. He was sending for "it". He likely assumed that Saruman was revealing to him that he had captured the Ring a Hobbit (Frodo) by torturing him and forcing him to face the Red Eye. Or He may have believed Saruman was merely having some fun with his prisoner. I would be willing to reach and accept the concept that Sauron may have believed Saruman was still loyal, though I doubt Sauron would so lack the signature paranoia of dictators. This could explain why he sent only one Nazgul. But I am convinced that Sauron thought Saruman had the Ring.

Boromir88 · 10-26-2006, 06:24 PM

I can see Mr. Underhill's side of the argument. If we look at the quote in full:

Quote:

'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"~The Palantir

Before this moment Pippin tells Sauron that he's a Hobbit. What's interesting is that I don't think Sauron ever seen a Hobbit before this...he hadn't even heard of them until Gollum mentioned them. So, when Sauron comes to see Pippin, he's taken back and laughs. Then after he has his laughs for a while...Wait a moment! (something just came to him that is important) We shall meet again soon.. Sauron sees there is some importance that he might beable to get from this 'hobbit.'

I can further understand Mr. Underhill's argument as Sauron referring to Pippin as 'dainty' (something delectable, delicate...etc) and further dehumanizing him referring to Pippin as 'it,' because when Sauron first sees a hobbit he is filled with laughter...as in 'How is this pathetic creature going to harm me.'

Also, when Pippin is first recovering from the encounter with Sauron he mistakes Gandalf for Saruman:

Quote:

'It is not for you, Saruman!' he cried in a shrill and toneless voice,' shrinking away from Gandalf. 'I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!'~Voice of Saruman

Pippin mistakes Gandalf for Saruman and shrinks away from him. Now Pippin is in a state of shock at this time, but either:

1) Sauron convinced Pippin that he had something valuable Sauron wanted (and hence Saruman had).

2) Pippin was reacting to what Sauron told him, and shrinks away from Saruman (well whom he believes to be Saruman), and reiterates Sauron's words 'It (or Pippin/he) is not for you, Saruman!'
Mithadan, if we take into account that he only wanted to send one Nazgul to go to Isengard, than I don't think Sauron thought he was going to get the Ring. You may be right, maybe Sauron did not know at this time that Saruman had planned to betray him (eventhough if Grishnakh did say 'Saruman is a fool: a dirty, treacerous fool, but the Eye is on him.'...there still could be some question as to whether Sauron knew what Saruman's plans were at this time. Though Sauron was definitely distrustful of him by this time, when he encounters Pippin in the Palantir). I would think though that if Sauron believed Pippin had the Ring...therefor Saruman had it, wouldn't it be more important to Sauron than just sending one Nazgul? I mean all 9 of them together failed to get the Ring, so I don't know how much faith Sauron would have in sending just one Nazgul into Isengard to get the Ring.

I guess another possibility could be that Sauron believed Saruman had the Ring, and since he had the Hobbit with him, it would prove useful to get both of them (maybe for information as far as what the 'West' was planning?) But, still I think if Sauron believed Saruman had a ring the situation would be more urgent than merely sending 1 Nazgul to go get it...even if Sauron believed Saruman was still his 'servant.'

the phantom · 10-26-2006, 10:46 PM

I think Sauron only sent one Nazgul because that Nazgul was the closest one. Sure, he could've gathered them all together and sent them in force, but why wait? His precious, his key to absolute victory, was within his grasp! Send for it immediately!

And if Saruman tries to keep it, then you know where he stands and you go in force to grab it from him.

And do you really think "this dainty" refers to Pippin? I'm having trouble seeing it. I'm just thinking it would've been written different if that was the case. The quote-

Quote:

Tell Saruman this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once.

So, Pip was seriously supposed to turn to Saruman and refer to himself as "this dainty"? I don't think so. When he says to Gandalf (mistaking him for Saruman) "It is not for you, Saruman!" why say "it" if he means "I'm"? If I was Saruman and Pip told me "it's not for you!" I certainly would not understand that "it" meant Pippin. That's an unclear message. A VERY unclear message. Do you think Sauron meant to send Saruman an unclear message? Nope.

And also, earlier in the Palantir conversation Sauron asked "Who are YOU" and after learning he was a halfling he said "WE shall meet again soon". I don't think Sauron was trying to dehumanize (dehobbitize?) Pip by making him an "it".

What is this whole thing about? The Ring. That's what Sauron wanted, that's what Saruman wanted, that's what they were looking for, and that's what they thought they would get by capturing the halfling.

It=Ring

Now, to Mithadan's point-

Quote:

And then, of all things, Sauron laughs! He was not truly alarmed! Sauron clearly believed that Saruman could not claim the Ring for himself and control it

Bingo!

This is something that I always like to point out. Sauron was NOT scared by a Maia with his Ring, and that's all that matters. It doesn't matter if Gandalf or Saruman or Galadriel thought they could overthrow Sauron with the Ring, what matters is what Sauron thinks about it, for as the creator of the Ring he obviously knows best on Ring-related matters.
And in his mind, Saruman+Ring = little kid with stick.

***Mister Underhill*** · 10-27-2006, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the phantom

So, Pip was seriously supposed to turn to Saruman and refer to himself as "this dainty"? I don't think so. When he says to Gandalf (mistaking him for Saruman) "It is not for you, Saruman!" why say "it" if he means "I'm"? If I was Saruman and Pip told me "it's not for you!" I certainly would not understand that "it" meant Pippin. That's an unclear message. A VERY unclear message. Do you think Sauron meant to send Saruman an unclear message? Nope.

And also, earlier in the Palantir conversation Sauron asked "Who are YOU" and after learning he was a halfling he said "WE shall meet again soon".

This is the most labored grammar-based argument I've seen since the last time the wings debate reared its head. Surely if Bilbo and Gollum can navigate Gollum's use of 'he', 'ye', and 'it' when referring to Bilbo, not to mention his unusual use of 'we' to refer to himself, Sauron and Saruman wouldn't be pulling a "Who's On First" routine via the palantir.

Nevertheless, Mith has an interesting point about the Mordor orcs. I'd forgotten about them. Did Sauron know that the Ring had entered Lorien? Didn't Haldir's boys wipe out the orc-band sent out of Moria after the Fellowship? This would certainly delay the news heading East, but I'm fuzzy on the timeline. More later if I have time to do some reading...

***Mithadan*** · 10-27-2006, 08:13 AM

Let's try to add some flesh to the bones here by continuing with the "What did Sauron know" theme and adding "What did Sauron suspect"?

Sauron knows that the last person who definitely had the Ring was Frodo due to the escapade at the Prancing Pony and the incident at Weathertop. He knows Frodo got to Rivendell. At this point, perhaps he is concerned that Elrond will claim it. But months pass without any sign of this happening. He knows Gandalf was involved. Gandalf encountered the Nazgul on Weathertop. He learns Gandalf has left Rivendell and learns generally the composition of the Fellowship due to the events in Moria. So Elrond has not claimed the Ring and Gandalf is not touching it. A group is heading south accompanied by Gandalf. Hobbits are in the group. Sauron's reasoning probably is as follows.

Gandalf is afraid to claim the Ring and Elrond has rejected it. It is going South. To where? Gondor is the logical destination. The Ring is being concealed. A Hobbit had it. Hobbits are weak and allowing a Hobbit to bear the Ring would present the least threat to the West. So a bodyguard is provided for the Hobbit to assist him in bringing the Ring to Gondor.

The Orc raid on Amon Hen specifically targets Hobbits. If Sauron only wanted intelligence it would suffice to capture any member of the Fellowship, not just Hobbits. If he wanted a Hobbit just to "play" with, he could have gotten one from The Shire. Grishnakh knows about the Ring. Sauron clearly thinks the Ring has remained with Frodo. So when a Hobbit is apparently captured by Saruman and (to Sauron's mind) intentionally revealed to him through the Palantir the only logical conclusion is that Sauron believed Saruman had captured the Ring.

***Mister Underhill*** · 10-27-2006, 08:30 AM

The orc-raid on Amon Hen was launched primarily by Saruman, though, no? I don't think you can assume that Saruman shared his intel with Sauron; on the contrary in this case. I'm thinking the Mordor orcs were vectored towards the Fellowship by the Nazgûl who Legolas shot down near the river. What's the word on the osanwé link between Sauron and his Nazgûl minions? Would he know what they know (or suspect) as soon as they know it, or do they have to be "within range"?

All this may be bunk. It begs the question of how a raiding party composed of Uruks, Moria, and Mordor orcs came to be formed.

EDIT: Cross-posted with Fordie, who makes some interesting points.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-27-2006, 08:21 AM

Interesting indeed....

Mith, your summary of what Sauron could or would reasonably know is compelling but I think there is a crucial point you are missing, and that is Sauron would easily have recognised that Pippin is not Frodo and therefore not the Ringbearer.

Remember, the Witch King stabbed Frodo at Weathertop when Frodo was wearing the Ring, and given the rather, shall we say, close relationship between the Nazgul and Sauron we can safely assume that the good, close-up look they got of Frodo there would have been transmitted to Sauron. It's also more than likely that they saw the other three hobbits as well (if not quite so well) and passed along those descriptions to him.

So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he would have known instantly that this particular hobbit is not the Ringbearer, thus Saruman has got the wrong hobbit -- hence the laugh perhaps? ("Stupid Sarumman! Wrong Halfling!") It is possible, I suppose, that Sauron would think that the Ring had been given to Pippin, but I find that hard to believe...I mean, if anyone is going to know how hard it would be for someone to give up the Ring it's going to be the Dark Lord. And besides, from his point of view, why bother getting Frodo to give up the Ring to another hobbit? One Halfling is pretty much the same as another (to him) and if the Ring is going to be given to someone else it would probably be (to Sauron's way of thinking) a person of Power who could use it against him.

I also find it hard to believe that Sauron could not instantly tell the difference between someone who had borne (and even worn) the Ring and someone who had not. The Ring has a terrible and marked presence and leaves its effect on any who take it, and Sauron would have to be able to see that. Gollum, having worn the Ring, feels the call of Sauron and goes to Mordor, and when he's captured he's not summarily killed but taken to Sauron and questioned by the Big Boss himself. Why would Sauron bother with such a pathetic thing if he wasn't able to see at a glance that Gollum was the product of his own Ring?

So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he sees not the Ringbearer, neither does he feel the effect nor the presence of the Ring. It might be that at this point he thinks that perhaps Saruman has more than one Halfling and that Frodo has been taken, but that's really speculating now -- and if this is the case, why would he not say "these dainties" or "they"? Unless, of course, "dainty" and "it" refer to the Ring, which -- as I say -- I don't think they do (for all of the above reasons).

I also don't see Sauron referring to his Ring as a "dainty" anything....

the phantom · 10-27-2006, 08:37 AM

You use good logic Fordim, but I'm not sure I'm willing to believe the whole concept of Sauron recognizing a Ring-bearer and being able to tell different hobbits apart.

In person, absolutely, you're right. But through the palantir....

Remember, at first Sauron thought he was talking to Saruman. That should be an obvious clue that Sauron couldn't tell a fellow Ring-bearer. I mean, he couldn't tell the difference between Saruman and Pippin!

I think the fact that the palantir was involved changes the situation.

Quote:

This is the most labored grammar-based argument I've seen since the last time the the wings debate reared its head.

Well, thank you.

10-26-2006, 04:52 PM	#2
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,394	OK let's review what Sauron knew and what Tolkien, directly or indirectly, implies. Sauron knew the Ring, carried by Frodo, reached Rivendell. He probably knew through spies that Frodo did not return to the Shire, though this is speculation. He knows Gandalf reached Caradhras after Gandalf conjures a fire. He knows a group passes through Moria and that the group includes Hobbits because the Orcs of Moria, whether they were free agents or not (unlikely) would pass this information on to the Mordor Orcs. He knows the Fellowship reaches Lorien. He is actively hunting for it when the Fellowship leaves and his Orcs have specific instructions to capture and not loot Hobbits. Grishnakh apparently knows about the Ring and tries to find it on Merry and Pippin. Sauron at the very least suspected that Frodo was still bearing the Ring. Now, what does Tolkien imply? He makes much of the fact that Pippin revealed he was a Hobbit but not his name and was not questioned by Sauron about the Fellowship or the location of the Ring. Sauron was so excited he forgot to ask these questions. So excited about a Hobbit? No. He thought Saruman had found the Ring. He was sending for "it". He likely assumed that Saruman was revealing to him that he had captured the Ring a Hobbit (Frodo) by torturing him and forcing him to face the Red Eye. Or He may have believed Saruman was merely having some fun with his prisoner. I would be willing to reach and accept the concept that Sauron may have believed Saruman was still loyal, though I doubt Sauron would so lack the signature paranoia of dictators. This could explain why he sent only one Nazgul. But I am convinced that Sauron thought Saruman had the Ring. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

10-27-2006, 08:13 AM	#6
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,394	Let's try to add some flesh to the bones here by continuing with the "What did Sauron know" theme and adding "What did Sauron suspect"? Sauron knows that the last person who definitely had the Ring was Frodo due to the escapade at the Prancing Pony and the incident at Weathertop. He knows Frodo got to Rivendell. At this point, perhaps he is concerned that Elrond will claim it. But months pass without any sign of this happening. He knows Gandalf was involved. Gandalf encountered the Nazgul on Weathertop. He learns Gandalf has left Rivendell and learns generally the composition of the Fellowship due to the events in Moria. So Elrond has not claimed the Ring and Gandalf is not touching it. A group is heading south accompanied by Gandalf. Hobbits are in the group. Sauron's reasoning probably is as follows. Gandalf is afraid to claim the Ring and Elrond has rejected it. It is going South. To where? Gondor is the logical destination. The Ring is being concealed. A Hobbit had it. Hobbits are weak and allowing a Hobbit to bear the Ring would present the least threat to the West. So a bodyguard is provided for the Hobbit to assist him in bringing the Ring to Gondor. The Orc raid on Amon Hen specifically targets Hobbits. If Sauron only wanted intelligence it would suffice to capture any member of the Fellowship, not just Hobbits. If he wanted a Hobbit just to "play" with, he could have gotten one from The Shire. Grishnakh knows about the Ring. Sauron clearly thinks the Ring has remained with Frodo. So when a Hobbit is apparently captured by Saruman and (to Sauron's mind) intentionally revealed to him through the Palantir the only logical conclusion is that Sauron believed Saruman had captured the Ring. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

10-27-2006, 08:21 AM	#8
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Interesting indeed.... Mith, your summary of what Sauron could or would reasonably know is compelling but I think there is a crucial point you are missing, and that is Sauron would easily have recognised that Pippin is not Frodo and therefore not the Ringbearer. Remember, the Witch King stabbed Frodo at Weathertop when Frodo was wearing the Ring, and given the rather, shall we say, close relationship between the Nazgul and Sauron we can safely assume that the good, close-up look they got of Frodo there would have been transmitted to Sauron. It's also more than likely that they saw the other three hobbits as well (if not quite so well) and passed along those descriptions to him. So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he would have known instantly that this particular hobbit is not the Ringbearer, thus Saruman has got the wrong hobbit -- hence the laugh perhaps? ("Stupid Sarumman! Wrong Halfling!") It is possible, I suppose, that Sauron would think that the Ring had been given to Pippin, but I find that hard to believe...I mean, if anyone is going to know how hard it would be for someone to give up the Ring it's going to be the Dark Lord. And besides, from his point of view, why bother getting Frodo to give up the Ring to another hobbit? One Halfling is pretty much the same as another (to him) and if the Ring is going to be given to someone else it would probably be (to Sauron's way of thinking) a person of Power who could use it against him. I also find it hard to believe that Sauron could not instantly tell the difference between someone who had borne (and even worn) the Ring and someone who had not. The Ring has a terrible and marked presence and leaves its effect on any who take it, and Sauron would have to be able to see that. Gollum, having worn the Ring, feels the call of Sauron and goes to Mordor, and when he's captured he's not summarily killed but taken to Sauron and questioned by the Big Boss himself. Why would Sauron bother with such a pathetic thing if he wasn't able to see at a glance that Gollum was the product of his own Ring? So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he sees not the Ringbearer, neither does he feel the effect nor the presence of the Ring. It might be that at this point he thinks that perhaps Saruman has more than one Halfling and that Frodo has been taken, but that's really speculating now -- and if this is the case, why would he not say "these dainties" or "they"? Unless, of course, "dainty" and "it" refer to the Ring, which -- as I say -- I don't think they do (for all of the above reasons). I also don't see Sauron referring to his Ring as a "dainty" anything.... __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

10-26-2006, 04:19 PM	#1
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	The same dehumanizing impulse that leads the predator to view his prey as an "it", the way Gollum does with Bilbo: "Is it nice, my preciousss? Is it juicy? Is it scrumptiously crunchable?"

10-27-2006, 08:30 AM	#7
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	The orc-raid on Amon Hen was launched primarily by Saruman, though, no? I don't think you can assume that Saruman shared his intel with Sauron; on the contrary in this case. I'm thinking the Mordor orcs were vectored towards the Fellowship by the Nazgûl who Legolas shot down near the river. What's the word on the osanwé link between Sauron and his Nazgûl minions? Would he know what they know (or suspect) as soon as they know it, or do they have to be "within range"? All this may be bunk. It begs the question of how a raiding party composed of Uruks, Moria, and Mordor orcs came to be formed. EDIT: Cross-posted with Fordie, who makes some interesting points.