For a drearier, scarier, better ‘downs.

[JennyHallu]

In my opinion, if you don't want to take the time to re-type your old, tired opinion again, but merely link to it, then why do you feel you must participate in a new thread? Links to old threads DO kill the new ones. Unless the link is to concrete and unassailable FACTS that were offered in a previous post (and if so, the link should be to that post, not the thread where it can be found) I feel they're inappropriate.

And I do feel that more threads should be archived. Look in the archive forum: the Barrow-Wight has created an excellent index, which I think makes it much easier to find exactly what you're looking for. I think threads should be archived, and all in the same place. The RPG archives serve only a specific purpose, and it makes sense that they be separate, but why is there a Books archive and Haudh-en-Ndengin?

[The Saucepan Man]

I think that's what Jenny meant to say when she said some of the posters were "intimidating". Obviously, I'm not actually afraid of running into SPM (unless he's a werewolf. SPM is a dangerous werewolf ) but when he takes the time to make a long, thought out post it just happens that I get the feeling I'm in way over my head.

Hehe. I suspect that the only thing that is intimidating about my posts is their length.

My first post here was in a thread which I created asking why the Eagles were not used to convey the Ring to Mordor. I was directed to some previous discussions, read them and summarised my findings. Hey, I'm a loyer, what do you expect? The thread, I believe, proceeded no further.

I have never read any of the HoME series. I started the first book and, I am afraid to admit, lost interest.

I had read LotR only about three times, and only once in about 20 years, when I started posting. I had never read the Silmarillion (tried it when I was 14 but gave up about halfway through the first chapter), although I have read it since - once.

A large part of my Tolkien knowledge is derived from having read posts here over the 4 years or so that I have been here, and also from being an avid participator in the Quiz forums for about 2-3 years of that time.

All of which is meant to say - if you do not feel sufficiently confident in your book knowledge to participate in Books discussions, then read. Read the books themselves obviously (I probably would have never read the Silm had I not come here - I'm very glad that I did). But also read the existing threads. This is a place to learn from as well as for expressing your own thoughts, views and opinions. Read those old threads. Read those threads that are linked to. You will not just learn about Tolkien, but a whole range of other stuff discussed incidentally to his works along the way. You will see different styles of debate, different ways of constructing an argument. And you will learn the dark art of verbosity too, if you read my posts.

I am afraid that I am one of those who sometimes posts links to old threads in new topics. I apologise if that is off-putting. It is natural to want to do so, I find, when one recalls a discussion and some interesting points which were made which might be relevant to the new discussion and of interest to those involved in it. That doesn't mean that the topics are the same, or have been approached in the same way, and it should not be taken as a direction to read the old thread(s) before proceeding with the new discussion. That is not the intention. Not mine, at least.

I am against segregation of topics by experience or knowledge or whatever. These things cannot be measured and, just because one person is less well-read or less familiar with a particular subject, it does not follow that they cannot add value to the discussion.

The Books forum is a big forum. There is room there for all kinds of discussions there. They do not all have to require a degree from the University of Tolkien to participate. Far from it. Yes, it is a place for serious discussion. And, yes, there are some very serious dicussions which draw upon a wide range of Tolkien (biographical and academic) resources. But there is also room for discussion of more "factual" matters, relating to specific events or characters, for which a good working knowledge of the relevant book should suffice. And there is room for a whole lot of other Tolkien-related discussion too.

No one should be afraid to start threads there, post on threads there which take their fancy and, perhaps most importantly, read threads there (especially if you do not quite feel ready to participate). And, if you feel intimidated by a thread, or feel that it is not for you, look around for another, perhaps even one of those old, dusty threads. Tolkien-related discussion should not be exclusive, not to anyone who is seriously interested in his works and in discussing them. If you get something wrong, what does it matter? We have all done that. Just learn from it and step back in.

As for starting new threads, I would endorse what Child said. Save in the limited circumstances she describes, new threads on subjects that have been discussed before will not be closed down. Threads can be merged here, and sometimes there are, but rarely in the Books forum I believe.

As for the Novices & Newcomers forum, in addition to the kinds of thread already mentioned, I have always understood it to be a place for less serious, more "trivial" discussion (and I do not mean that in a demeaning way). Threads such as: "Who is your favourite Elf?" and the like. Not everyone enjoys those kinds of discussion, but many do (and they can be quite a good way for newcomers to ease themselves into the Downs).

Did I mention that I am verbose ...

[Durelin]

I'd just like to note that, pretty much the only reason I don't spend too much time in "The Books" is because I often have a headache, and trying to discuss intelligently is just beyond me.

Really, I think that it has mostly to do with just how much time and energy people have, and often they don't have quite enough to participate in "The Books," particularly when, as Saucepan Man has pointed out about his posts, the posts are often very very long.

And there's also just so much to do on the 'Downs! If people find themselves bored just staring at it, they really should join a RPG or something...

[mormegil]

Jenny I have to say that it is silly that you are intimidated by many of the book threads...with that being said I also am intimidated. So yes, I am silly too. Often times I feel rather unsubstantial and not constructive to the current arguement. I have found myself, more than once, drafting up a post only to delete the whole thing and never post it due to my feelings. I'm often worried about my grammar and language. Sometimes I fail to understand some of the subtle points that are made. In fact I consider myself to be one of the least intelligent regulars on the downs.

So I propose a deal be made: You, I, and any other who feel intimidated about posting on the books begin to do so and ignore our trepidation. Those who are the old timers and Tolkien scholars be patient with us, I feel that you are but it's reassuring to emphasize the point.

I feel that sometimes my points are valid and well taken, other times I feel that I have good points but I'm not articulate like so many other here. So I pledge I will try harder and do better.

[Valier]

I too have felt a little intimidated by the book threads. I have always wanted to post but can never find the right words to express myself without sounding like a noob. I swear if other will try too and promise to bear with me when my points are not quite clear, I will make an effort to really put some thought into some more bookish threads.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Yes, Valier, I hope you will post. You would benfit and so would the rest of us by getting your ideas. But you're not the only one who needs to remind themselves. I'm often in the same situation.

Plus, Durelin has a good point. Book posts are not only a matter of willingness and knowlege but also of the time available to each poster. Since my first commitment is to RPGs and my second commitment is to making sure my family doesn't starve or go without clean socks , that unfortunately leaves less time for Book posts. Still, it's good to be reminded how important it is to post in Books.

I also remember when I first came to the BD, I was a little cowed by the Books forum, even though I had been reading Tolkien for many years. I picked my spots to post with care. I knew more about hobbits than any other topic so I would post on those threads and pass over anything that had to do with Silm or HoMe. I guess that would be my main advice for someone who'd like to do more in Books but who still feels a little out of place. Everyone tends to have certain topics near and dear to their hearts. Search out those questions or even post one yourself, and then dig in. I honestly think that, with only a handful of exceptions, many posters--even so-called "old timers"--had some trepidations about posting in Books when they first joined the site. Believe me, you're not alone. I can still be overawed by the back and forth of those folk who have training and expertise in literary criticism. But the only way to get over that hesitation is to start posting.

I also think the chapter by chapter discussions are a great way to learn to do a "serious" post. Some of the best posts there are people giving their personal impression of the material they've read. At the same time, you can keep reading and gradually ease into more rigorous debate.

[Thinlómien]

I would class myself as a "intermediate member" by knowledge, yet I see no point in an intermediate forum. I have even started a few threads in the books (yet some of them would have belonged to the N&N perhaps) and never have been afraid of posting on the forum even with my knowledge that is lesser than many other members'. The books does not contain only the topics like "Lord of the Bible" it also has those "medicore" threads, which I would classifyb for example the "LotrR labelled racist" -thread, "Do ents lay eggs" (which coukld be classified as a novice thread) and such. The Books is not some scary forum where only the most knowledgeable debate on thgeir high seats.

One reason I feel the books is slowing down is also that even if people start topics, there is not enough people interested about the subject who wish to comment and the threads die out.

I forgot the third thing I wanted to say. well, i'll get back when I remember it...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Behold my first Books post. It's also my first thread.

It's not very impressive, is it? Hardly what you'd call 'intimidating'. The people I found intimidating at the time were those who knew more than I did, which included practically everyone. At one point Sharku cowed me just by posting an extract from a dictionary, which I took to show a preternatural knowledge of etymology. Ridiculous, isn't it? Most of what I know about Tolkien I've learned either from members here or from books that they mentioned or recommended, and I still couldn't keep up with people like obloquy and Saulotus if they were active.

The language in books doesn't have to be academic. A lot of the more knowledgeable members happen to feel more comfortable in a scholarly idiom, either by training or because their professions require them to write formal English. It doesn't mean that nobody wants to see a more relaxed style, it's just that in some of the discussions precision of expression is very important, and I at least find it hard to be informal and precise at the same time. The important thing in Books is that the thinking should go deeper and be based on more knowledge than it has to be in N&N. If you've got a really interesting point, nobody will care about split infinitives or dangling prepositions: it's the quality of the ideas that counts.

Most importantly, we've all been new. Everyone has to make a first post and everyone has had to get used to posting on the forum. More to the point, everyone is a little intimidated by the challenge of Books because it's a demanding forum. It always has been for as long as I've been a member. If you can rise to the challenge it's a very rewarding place to post, and if you can't then nobody wants to stop you reading it. It's certainly cheaper than buying the mass of additional Tolkien literature that's out there. When I first arrived I didn't think I could make a valuable contribution, but to my amazement there were those who disagreed. You never know what the reaction will be until you try, unless of course your shiny new thread is 'who's the best dwarf?' but you know about that already.

I know I've been absent for a long time, but even back when I was here every day I didn't post on every Books thread. There have always been those subjects on which I can't comment, but fortunately there's usually someone who can. If you pick your ground as Child suggested you can ease yourself into the discussions and your knowledge will catch up. I spend a lot of time tracking down quotations, and it can be fun. Sometimes I forget all about the post and instead get caught up in a passage I'd only looked up to check my facts. That's one of the things that only happens to me when I join in on Books.

What I'm trying to say is give Books a try. The worst that can happen is that your post embarrasses you much later on, as that one of mine above does whenever I read it.