Silmarillion - Valaquenta

[Child of the 7th Age]

Bb,

That idea of Eru as the "God of Love" is certainly different and intriguing, and I certainly never thought of that before.

Another possibility, and these are random thoughts thrown out. Perhaps there's not a single "god of love" because different Valar share various attributes which, when taken together, help to define"love". In that scenario, perhaps Eru is the distant father who allows his children to make mistakes and learn. There is undoubtedly love there, yet it seems so removed.

I've also thought of Manwe and Varda as being the perfect model of a couple, sharing intimacies and respecting each other's abilities. Strangely enough, the other name that comes to my mind when I think of "love" is Nienna. It almost seems as if Tolkien often equates "love" with "tears" -- that pure grieving is one of the truest forms of love we can experience in a world that is so flawed. (Ok....I can't help thinking of his own childhood here.)

This is one of my favorite lines in the Silm:

But she [i.e. Nienna] does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity and endurance in hope

It's so interesting to me that two of the most important themes of LotR--pity and hope--make their appearance here in the form of Nienna, long before Frodo and Sam (perhaps each the flawed but very human embodiment of one of these?) are even a glint on the horizon.

I also love this intriguing phrase: "The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world." Presumably that hints at the fact that, ultimately, there must be some form of help (perhaps some form of love itself??) that comes from beyond the world. Or is there another possible meaning for this?

What is missing, however, is erotic love....unless you assume that this element lies hidden within Varda and Manwe but is decently concealed from outside eyes.

Does anyone have any favorites among the Valar and Maiar? My own are Nienna and Olórin. I love it that these two were connected by Tolkien right from the start. Well, perhaps not right from the start, since this passage was added later. But I'm still glad it was put here. Indeed the passage on Olorin and even the last sentence on Sauron requires a knowledge of some of what happened in the later Second and Third Ages. Can we assume then, in a fictional sense, Bilbo did not translate and edit this portion until after Frodo's return?

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

Strangely enough, the other name that comes to my mind when I think of "love" is Nienna. It almost seems as if Tolkien often equates "love" with "tears" -- that pure grieving is one of the truest forms of love we can experience in a world that is so flawed.

Note that Tolkien also never fails to mention that in Nienna's grief is something good, whether it be the learning of pity and endurance, or the wisdom that is mentioned when she visits Mandos. That's something else that jumped out at me that I forgot to mention in my original post.

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

What is missing, however, is erotic love....unless you assume that this element lies hidden within Varda and Manwe but is decently concealed from outside eyes.

But isn't erotic love and eroticism missing from the entire body of Tolkien's writing? It is a subject that he implies, or mentions the results of, without ever entering someone else's bedroom. Which strikes me as singularly British.

There's a thread over on the main Books board right now about CT preparing to publish a completed version of the Children of Hurin, which is said to contain much r-rated material, such as incest. However, if JRR's original style is to be preserved, the incest will be understood, but never directly seen.

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

Does anyone have any favorites among the Valar and Maiar? My own are Nienna and Olórin. I love it that these two were connected by Tolkien right from the start.

Have to think abou that - I don't think I have a favorite, there is no god of woodworking (see my Avatar)... Yavanna's sort of the god of anti-woodworking...

[Child of the 7th Age]

About eroticism....for the most part you are very correct. Still, when I read some of the early scenes between Beren and Luthien, I certainly have the impression of something going on, with just a thin translucent veil hanging down so that we only get the vaguest hint.

Still, that comes later so won't dwell on it here.

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

Does anyone have any favorites among the Valar and Maiar?

Ulmo for being unexpectingly compassionate and proactive, and Aule for being most like the Children of Illuvatar in heart and spirit.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

Strangely enough, the other name that comes to my mind when I think of "love" is Nienna. It almost seems as if Tolkien often equates "love" with "tears" -- that pure grieving is one of the truest forms of love we can experience in a world that is so flawed. (Ok....I can't help thinking of his own childhood here.)
. . .

It's so interesting to me that two of the most important themes of LotR--pity and hope--make their appearance here in the form of Nienna, long before Frodo and Sam (perhaps each the flawed but very human embodiment of one of these?) are even a glint on the horizon.

I also love this intriguing phrase: "The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world." Presumably that hints at the fact that, ultimately, there must be some form of help (perhaps some form of love itself??) that comes from beyond the world. Or is there another possible meaning for this?

What is missing, however, is erotic love....unless you assume that this element lies hidden within Varda and Manwe but is decently concealed from outside eyes.

Tolkien's pantheon of gods is so very different from the Greek and Roman ones--all the scrabbling, self indulgence, vanity, competition, fighting, and philandering is removed. Nor do his gods take on animal shape and forms, only human forms. I remember my childhood response to reading classical mythology, thinking how very like the worst aspects of human behaviour were those gods. Tolkien's seem an idealisation by comparison.

I think Nienna is his most interesting and original contribution to mythic divinity, although it is possible I am forgetting some of the divine characters from other mythologies. Certainly in LotR nothing gets accomplished without cooperation or sharing: success on Mount Doom needs both Sam and Frodo, the killing of the Witch-King employs both Merry and Eowyn.

Raynor has provided some interesting extensions to the idea of love.

Originally Posted by Raynor

I think that Varda is quite close to what one could call a goddess of love, which would fit your above connection. On one hand, she is described as the most beautiful vala, most likely the most beautiful of all Eru's "offsprings"

. . .

In most legendariums, the goddess of love is usually the one most endowed with beauty.

Once beauty is brought into the equation, do we need to consider Tolkien's comments on beauty and evil in OFS?

Originally Posted by OFS

The fear of the beautiful fay that ran through the elder ages almost eludes our grasp. Even more alarming, goodness is itself bereft of its proper beauty.

Originally Posted by Raynor

It is also worth mentioning that the elves were freed from most of the desires of the flesh, being masters of their bodies and urges - therefore enjoying love in its highest form

Given Child's observation about the absence of eroticism, I suppose we ought to ask a question about this hierarchy. Do the ancient mythologies have this value system of higher and lower forms of love? Is this valuation something in Tolkien's text or is it an assumption that Raynor is bringing to the text?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Beth

Nor do his gods take on animal shape and forms, only human forms.

At least Yavanna takes a non-human form, that of gigantic tree.

I think Nienna is his most interesting and original contribution to mythic divinity, although it is possible I am forgetting some of the divine characters from other mythologies.

The buddhists also have Tara, the divine aspect of compassion, with her male companion, Avalokiteshvara. In Christianity, in think that Mary, the mother of Christ, would also be a fit figure for this, seeing her imagery and prayers dedicated to her.

Once beauty is brought into the equation, do we need to consider Tolkien's comments on beauty and evil in OFS?

Hm, I don't remember even a single elven woman using her beauty in an evil way; [interestingly enough, I have to think hard to remember a single evil elven woman.]

Do the ancient mythologies have this value system of higher and lower forms of love?

In most Indian-related religions (hinduism and buddhism in particular), vairagya, detachement in all aspects of life, is highly estimeed; even in kaula and mishra, the non-superior branches of Tantra, spiritual development in a couple is not possible without detachment.

Is this valuation something in Tolkien's text or is it an assumption that Raynor is bringing to the text?

There is this interesting refference in Aelfwine's preamble:

Originally Posted by Of the marriage laws and customs of the Eldar, their children, and other matters touching thereon, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X

The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part. Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them.
...
They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.

They seem to embody the kind of pure, untainted love, that Tolkien believed would happen between humans only in cases of saints, or later in life when the "sex cools down", and only in the rarest of cases between "ordinary folk" [- cf. letter #43 to Michael Tolkien on the subject of marriage and the relations betwen the sexes].