Saruman and betrayal

[Kuruharan]

The Council perhaps may have driven Saruman from Orthanc.

Or tried to pen him in as Gandalf did in the event. I don't know if they would have wanted to kill him. I personally think it unlikely.

I do think they would have wanted to keep him from getting away if possible.

[Mänwe]

Kuruharan quite right,

"'The treacherous are ever distrustful,' answered Gandalf wearily. 'But you need not fear for your skin. I do not wish to kill you, or hurt you, as you would know, if you really understood me. And I have the power to protect you. I am giving you a last chance. You can leave Orthanc, free – if you choose.'" - (The Voice of Saruman, Book III The Two Towers)

I was unlooking during my first post. As Gandalf entertains the idea of letting him free here, then had they taken action against him earlier I would say that the same would have applied.

[the phantom]

What could have been done?

Aren't what-ifs fun?

pre-emptive strikes?

That would certainly be the smart way to go, if you could catch Saruman by surprise the way the Ents did and get it over with quick. A siege certainly isn't an option in my mind, because you can't spare the troops and time for a siege with Sauron sitting across the Anduin. No no, if possible you'd want to land a crushing blow to Saruman with no warning and turn your attention back to Mordor as quickly as possible.

'live and let live' till attacks start?

You mean ignore Saruman until he attacks? Definitely not. Getting Rohan to ignore Saruman was Grima's whole job. Saruman wanted to be left alone while he built up.

negotiate?

Well, I suppose that might be the option that all the hopeful unrealistic people would recommend. Yes indeed, in their silly little minds talking/bargaining/negotiating/pacifying always makes things better. But arguing against them would be every person who has ever dealt with Morgoth, Sauron, Glaurung, and other such delightful individuals.

I'm thinking Elrond and the others would be intelligent enough not to negotiate. You'll notice that Gandalf talked terms with Saruman after he smashed his army and had him trapped. It wasn't really a negotiation. It was mercy to an already defeated opponent.

[Kuruharan]

if you could catch Saruman by surprise the way the Ents did and get it over with quick. A siege certainly isn't an option in my mind, because you can't spare the troops and time for a siege with Sauron sitting across the Anduin.

Hmmm...I think it might depend on when Saruman's treachery was discovered.

Say, for example, that somehow Saruman was exposed years before Sauron wanted to move. Would Sauron attempt to rescue Saruman?

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Hmmm...I think it might depend on when Saruman's treachery was discovered.

Say, for example, that somehow Saruman was exposed years before Sauron wanted to move. Would Sauron attempt to rescue Saruman?

That would depend on how strong Sauron was at that time and also what was Saruman's worth to him also. If Sauron moved unprepared and was defeated by the Gondorians in the first few engagements, it might not derail his plans but would certainly retard them. However when it comes to resources, Sauron had the potential the fair out-stripped Gondor, so no permanent damage might have come to it.

So that leaves the question on how Sauron was going to come to the assistance of Saruman. Obviously bashing his way from Mordor to Isen was really out of the question and defeats the purpose of creating two fronts.

[Kuruharan]

So that leaves the question on how Sauron was going to come to the assistance of Saruman.

As you indicated above, I think it would depend on timing.

If we really wanted to get in depth on this we'd set up a few time periods and assess the strategic situations at the time.

[the phantom]

Sauron rescue Saruman? I doubt it. He certainly wouldn't rescue him in the way the Sons of Elrond rescued their mother or Finrod saved Beren's skin. The difference lies in sacrifice. Can you see Sauron weakening himself, his kingdom, or his ability to make war in order to save someone else? No way.

I think Sauron would love to see the good side fighting with someone who was supposed to be one of them. Now, if the battle looked like it would be one sided against Saruman, then I can imagine Sauron trying to help him even the odds in some way, but it wouldn't be to save his life. It would be to spill the blood of his enemies.

If you were being attacked by cats there's no way I'd come to your rescue, because I wouldn't want to get scratched myself. Of course, that doesn't mean I couldn't toss you a baseball bat to help you out. And at the same time, my tossing you a bat doesn't necessarily mean that I like you and want to help- it may just mean that I hate cats.