Two films for The Hobbit? Invented materials to "fill in the gaps"?

[Trotter]

Originally Posted by Essex

I beg to differ. PJ's films WERE Middle-earth. Yes there were differences, but the story characters and plot were mainly faithful to the book.

PS - look at Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone - that was very faithful to the brilliant book, but became a very boring movie!!!

The characters faithful!!?? What about the reworking of Frodo and the total maligning of his courageous character? What about the butchering of Noble Faramir? What about the toned down and unsure Gandalf? What about the complete degrading of Gimli son of Gloin? The list is endless my friend. No, PJ's LOTR was NOT faithful to Tolkien's characters. Call me a nitpicker if you will. It is true though that PJ's characters accomplished the same things as the book's characters, but the way they went about doing that was different. Yes, I have heard the arguements about how the characters had to be made more conflicted and unsure for the films, but I disagree with them. I know that a film should avoid being boring at all costs, and granted, changes must be made, but there is a line to draw my friend, and PJ never did that as far as most of the characters were concerned.

P.S. I really do enjoy PJ's films, as PJ's LOTR. But I still hold to the belief that they could be done better as far as characters and story goes. I do applaud PJ and his team for their stunning costume, effects, and music work though, no problems there.


Trotter

[Essex]

The characters faithful!!?? What about the reworking of Frodo and the total maligning of his courageous character?

Movie Frodo WAS courageous. I admit, for example, that movie Frodo does not stand up to the Nazgul at the Ford. Movie Frodo was next to death's door and unable to reply - it doesn't make him a coward nor malign his character - I mean, the most courageous thing he did by far was crossing Mordor and making it up Mount Doom. This is included in the film.

But I put it to you that it was Frodo's COMPASSION towards Gollum and therefore his, and Middle-earth's, REDEMPTION that is a thousand more times important that his Courage. His compassion is what is important - that is what the whole message of Lord of the Rings is to me. And we see this Compassion and Redemption in the films.

What about the butchering of Noble Faramir?

If we strip the Change down to its bones, Faramir and the Hobbits took a detour. Movie Faramir needs the position made clear to him. Jackson puts in a detour to Osgiliath which I am not condoning, but have now realised it for what it is. A detour. We still seee Noble Faramir in his decision at the end of movie TT, and we see his nobility shine through in movie ROTK too.

What about the toned down and unsure Gandalf?

Don't you think book Gandalf had doubts about what he did in sending Frodo to Mount Doom? PJ has emphasised these points, yes, but why not? I would love all the movie characters to say and do exactly what they did in the book but we do not have the 54 hours required to fit all this in. Roll on the Mini Series of LOTR for this!

What about the complete degrading of Gimli son of Gloin?

Fair point, but then let's be honest, he doesn't have a lot to do in the book either does he? not much of a major character.... But I do cringe at his 'comedic' perfomance sometimes

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Trotter

The characters faithful!!?? What about the reworking of Frodo and the total maligning of his courageous character? What about the butchering of Noble Faramir? What about the toned down and unsure Gandalf?

These bother me, with the presentation of Frodo bothering me more and more as I see it again. In the book, Frodo is shown as feeling the heavy heavy weight of the ring and its evil power, but he doesn't descend to the point of having to be urged on by Sam the way he does in the movie. Look at the scene right before they catch the coneys for lunch--Sam comes across as the only one leading him on, the only one seeing what is happening to him, while in the book, Frodo never loses sight of what he needs to do and is well aware of the evil power of the ring (this is why he is able to feel pity for Gollum, since he sees that he will descend to this in the end). And then later, he is conned in the movie by Gollum, sending Sam away. I thought a big part of the book was the essentially noble spirit of Frodo and that he was the main one who completed the quest, while in the movie, it seems like he is a basket case from the Dead Marshes on.

Faramir comes across in the end as noble, but not convincingly so. It isn't quite clear to me how the events in Osgiliath lead him to "understand" Frodo, which he could not do before. Anyway, this was a missed chance to contrast Faramir, a human with Numenorean blood and wisdom to resist the lure of the ring, with Boromir (who lacked this wisdom).

Gandalf is messed up to some extent as well, with him providing the doubting point of view in the Last Debate, which goes against everything before in which he is the prime mover against Sauron. And as bearer of the Secret Fire (the Ring), his express mission is to uplift the hearts of those against Sauron, and this scene certainly does not convey this.

[The Sixth Wizard]

I agree the Frodo-Faramir bit is bad, and the Two Towers is overdone in places. And Gandalf should not disagree at Last Debate, nor should he counsel Theoden to ride and meet Saruman (in the book he counsels Theoden to go to Helm's Deep as I remember). But overall the movies were good enough. Look at how bad Harry Potter is, after all! What really bugs me is the near-to-final scene. Frodo should not wrestle Gollum at that last bit, he should just topple over the edge. God, that bit bugged me. Although it does help with the Frodo-being-Courageous problem.

Oh yes, and I think someone other than PJ should do the Hobbit movie. He'll just over-do it with battle scenes and love-stories. It was originally for children after all.

THE SIXTH WIZARD.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

These bother me, with the presentation of Frodo bothering me more and more as I see it again. In the book, Frodo is shown as feeling the heavy heavy weight of the ring and its evil power, but he doesn't descend to the point of having to be urged on by Sam the way he does in the movie. Look at the scene right before they catch the coneys for lunch--Sam comes across as the only one leading him on, the only one seeing what is happening to him, while in the book, Frodo never loses sight of what he needs to do and is well aware of the evil power of the ring (this is why he is able to feel pity for Gollum, since he sees that he will descend to this in the end).

Yes, in the book Frodo is aware that he is almost under its full power, esp near Mount Doom. But the key thing to remember is that book Frodo is under its Power, in the same way movie Frodo is. That is why both book and movie Frodo need Samwise Gamgee to help him complete the Quest. Without Sam, the Quest would have failed too. As well as Frodo's Compassion, we also have Sam's Heroism to help him complete the Quest.

And then later, he is conned in the movie by Gollum, sending Sam away.

Yeah, I know. I don't like this, but I can understand why the scritwriters did this. Sam turns up to save the day but it also too late to save Frodo (and we wouldn't have the stunning scene of Shelob creeping up on Frodo). Also, we wouldn't have the very important interlude between Frodo and Gollum which perfectly shows Frodo's compassion towards Gollum which resulted in the Quest being succesful.

Faramir comes across in the end as noble, but not convincingly so. It isn't quite clear to me how the events in Osgiliath lead him to "understand" Frodo, which he could not do before. Anyway, this was a missed chance to contrast Faramir, a human with Numenorean blood and wisdom to resist the lure of the ring, with Boromir (who lacked this wisdom).

As in the book, Faramir decides to let the hobbits go once he has learnt of the truth of what his brother did. In the book, Sam is cajoled by Faramir the excellent 'interrogator' into giving away the Plan regarding the Enemy's Ring, and his brother's part in it. In the film, Sam berates Faramir into understanding the peril of the Ring by again explaining the effect it had on his brother. In both cases, Faramir lets them go.

Remember book Faramir was also tempted. Let's not forget that it was his WORD that was one of the deciding factors that helped his reasoning on letting the hobbits carry on with thier Quest. He said before he knew what the Enemy's weapon was Frodo carried that he would not pick it up if it lied on the side of the road. He kept to his word once he found out what it actually was. But he WAS tempted to take the Ring. Movie Faramir was 'more' tempted, and made a detour to Osgiliath before realising his mistake.

I'm not saying I agree with the Change, but I have learnt to live with it and see it for what it was. A Detour.

Gandalf is messed up to some extent as well, with him providing the doubting point of view in the Last Debate, which goes against everything before in which he is the prime mover against Sauron.

Ok, I understand this, but its not a real major point. Why can't Gandalf have a bit of self doubt? He's sent two little hobbits on a 'foolish Quest' to get rid of the Ring. He knows it's Middle-earth's only chance, but he has already stated (at the Council for example) that it was full or risks and foolhardy. Wouldn't you have some self doubt in his position too?

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Well, this is a good discussion, and I ain't no mod, but praps we gets it back on topic, yes precious? About the nassty little Hobbit movie?

[Boromir88]

Well, this is a good discussion, and I ain't no mod, but praps we gets it back on topic, yes precious? About the nassty little Hobbit movie?

I second that...that's how things work around here right?

[Morsul the Dark]

well it all depnds on where thy break it up i thnk the last shot of the first movie would b the dwarves being dragged into mirkwod's dungeons

[Tuor in Gondolin]

well it all depnds on where thy break it up i thnk the last shot of the first movie would b the dwarves being dragged into mirkwod's dungeons

The trouble with that is it might come too late in the
story. What about when they enter Mirkwood or when the
dwarves or captured by the spiders (with Thorin by
Thranduil) and Bilbo is left frantic, while at
the same time the White Counsel is seen deciding to
attack Dol Guldur or even beginning the battle?

Of course, if PJ does such films you'd have to be
prepared for Aragorn being aged from 10 to about 20
so he could have his first trysts with Arwen (actually, not
altogether a bad idea).