Silmarillion - Ainulindale

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

So, the way I see it, Tolkien's choice to use the masculine pronoun for Iluvatar does not necessarily imply that Tolkien was restricting creativity to males within his Legendarium. It certainly does imply that he had certain preconceived notions (perhaps not conscious ones) about the male-female dichotomy; and I do think that there is a kind of androcentrism and implied sexism in both his creation myth and the Judeo-Christian one.

Oh, I think you are right there. The point would be to see how this un/conscious prioritising of males plays out, if at all, in the story. (And it probably would be of greater understanding if the label 'sexist' were not used.)

By the by, there is that interesting letter of Tolkien to his son Michael. The Letters of course need to be kept in context and considered in light of many things and not taken as decrees absolute. Yet it is worth keeping these observations in mind:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, Letter #43, March 1941

No intent necessarily to deceive: sheer instinct: the servient, helpmeet instinct, generously warmed by desire and young blood. Under this impulse they can in fact often achieve very remarkable insight and understanding, even of things otherwise outside their natural range: for it is their gift to be receptive, stimulated, fertilized (in many other matters than the physical) by the male. Every teacher knows that. How quickly an intelligent woman can be taught, grasp his ideas, see his point -- and how (with rare exceptions) they can go no further, when they leave his hand, or when they cease to take a personal interest in him.

None of which is to diminish the fascinating job Tolkien has done in creating a new myth.

[davem]

Given that Tolkien was an Edwardian, & spent most of his life in a male dominated society, I suppose the most surprising thing about his work is how many strong female characters there are. If we look at the fantasy of William Morris, ER Eddison, Robert E Howard, Edgar Rice Burrows, Lord Dunsany, & even his friend & contemporary Lewis we don't find anything like the complex & significant female characters we find in Tolkien. We find fewer in the myths & legends that inspired him.

[Durelin]

Having learned about Aboriginal religion recently, I couldn’t help but think of it when I saw this thread. Though I’m still not exactly sure why…

In Aboriginal religion, creation itself is known as ‘dream time’ or ‘the dreaming,’ and the beginning of the physical world began with the beginning of dream time. Before there was a physical world, ‘waking time’ and ‘sleeping time’ were one in the same. Underneath the earth, everything that makes up everything in the physical world was asleep. Creation occurred when waking time and sleeping time were split, and dream time resulted.

The “Ancestors” were sort of supernatural beings that were asleep beneath the Earth, as well, and they awakened at creation, and gave shape to the landscape, formed living things, and the like. They created the first human beings, and organized them into different tribes, putting each tribe in the land where they should live, and giving them their traditions and customs.

The way they formed the land and life on the Earth was through music as they traveled all over the Earth. Afterwards, some of the Ancestors went back into the Earth to sleep, and left outlines of themselves in the landscape. Others stayed and became parts of the land themselves.

To me, the Ancestors seem a bit like the Ainur and Maiar. Really, the main striking resemblance is something that can be found in almost every religion: music.

Perhaps the Yoruba religion’s creation story shares some similarities, as well. The supreme being was Oldumare, and there was a creator of heaven and of earth: Oron and Aye, respectively. All of the other (a little) lesser spiritual deities are known as the Orishas. (There are also Ancestor spirits called the Egungun.)

The Orishas were created as sort of emissaries of Oldumare, and were formed because the god overflowed his boundaries with goodness and power and the like. They are essentially part of Oldumare, and each Orisha has a characteristic and “anti-characteristic” that they represent (essentially representing the entire spectrum of a characteristic). The Orishas were responsible for creating the land on earth.

I think the Orishas share a bit in common with the Maiar and Ainur, too, representing characteristics or ideas, and ‘created’ by Ilúvatar more as ideas than actual beings.

The connections are vague, at best, but these being two very old religions, it’s interesting to me to see just how easy it is to draw connections from any religion to another, and even (or maybe that should be ‘of course’) to a ‘fictional’ creation story. Music is a key part of pretty much all religions, which is curious. Perhaps that sort of unifying idea was what Tolkien had in mind. Of course, there’s no more distinct way to illustrate harmony than through music, I think.

And now I think perhaps it was a combination of the Aboriginal and Yoruba religions in my head that caused me to really think of the Ancestors as incredibly like the Ainur and/or Maiar. Ancestorishas, maybe.

I apologize for not really drawing any conclusions. Just wanted to toss ideas out there.

(Also, I apologize if any of my explanations concerning the religions are off. I am by no means an expert...)

And (I swear, this is the last disclaimer!), I am not beginning to declare that Tolkien was at all inspired by knowledge of these religions at all. Just pointing out interesting similarities, which are, in my opinion, inevitable, regardless of purpose (or lack thereof).

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

I first tried to read the Silm back in high school in the 80s. Unlike a few here, I loved the Ainulindale the first time I read it, and stumbled over the Valaquenta, giving up on the Silm until a decade later (or more). Still, the Ainulindale is my favorite part of what has become my favorite of Tolkien's works. In college as a music major, I wanted, for my senior project, to write a piece of music based on the it, and still do. I ended up arranging the music for my wedding instead (still married 15 years later, BTW, so I probably made the better choice).

Anyway, here are some scattered and disorganized thoughts on the discussion as it has unfolded:

First, regarding the origin of evil, it is true that in any monotheistic worldview, the question of where did evil come from is a tricky one. The Judeo-Christian answer is that if God did not allow free choice, then true love could not exist, because for love to be real, it must be freely given. By the same token, if one is free to choose not to love, then one is free to choose evil. So, God created the framework for evil to exist, but not the actual evil itself. Here's the question I don't think will ever be answered this side of eternity - how did evil enter into the heart of Melkor (Satan).

Think about, created in perfection, wisdom beyond measure, living in the presence of the Creator, and still he rebelled. Anguirel might find something admirable in this, but to stand against what would be the most impressive, awesome, etc., sight in the universe and decide there must be something better is quite a leap, in my book.

(Does anyone know how Islam deals with the origin of evil question?)

Second, regarding the sex of the valar, when Tolkien rewrote the Ainulindale to eliminate the valar's offsrping, he made them somewhat closer to the angels of the Judeo-Christian tradition, but not completely. As LJ said to the Pharisees, angels "do not marry or are they given in marriage". At the same time, the Valar did espouse each other, but with the exception of Melian, did not copulate.

Melian has precedent, too. One common interpretation of the theme from Genesis where the Sons of God had intercourse with the daughters of men and produced the Nephilim, mighty men of old, men of reknown, was that fallen angels were impregnating human women, resulting in sort of supermen half-breeds.

One other interesting change, which will become more distinct in later chapters, is that Tolkien reduced the size of his pantheon. The earlier versions (all that I've read is Lost Tales) have additional "gods" of war and the like, that he eliminated for the final work. Could it be that Tolkien became more religiously conservative as he aged, and his writing reflected that?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Pio

the repetition of sounds in the sentences and how the words are put together or spaced apart reminds me at times of a river's water sliding over stones of differing sizes, over sandy bars, and bumping with varying degrees of force against those things which have fallen into it before flowing on again.

It just struck me that this resembles the way Goldberry's voice is described in LotR.

[Aiwendil]

It just struck me that this resembles the way Goldberry's voice is described in LotR.

This is interesting, and it reminds me of a little idea I have about Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. My personal "theory" concerning Tom Bombadil is that he is not an incarnate in the same sense as Elves and Men, but rather a part of Arda itself, an intrinsic part of the world just like the mountains, the rivers, and the land. And he (as well as Goldberry) is constantly singing. Could this be a kind of echo of the Music of the Ainur, much like that still heard in the sea?

[Lalwendë]

Aiwendil, get yourself a cup of tea and read This thread from CbC where you brought this same idea about Tom up and there's a bit of discussion with you, Heren, davem and myself agreeing with it. Heren mentions something about Tom being like the Oxfordshire countryside, well, wasn't there a quote from Tolkien where he said Tom was the spirit of the disappearing Oxfordshire countryside?