Translations from the English - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aiwendil · 09-19-2006, 11:25 AM

Thanks, Squatter! It has always irked me, as well, that Christopher left those untranslated. I've been working on learning Old English - now I can use these texts as practice, with a 'solution' to check my work against.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 09-20-2006, 03:04 AM

I'm glad you like it, Aiwendil. Thanks for the support: I was beginning to think that nobody was interested.

I cannot advise too strongly against using my translations to practice Old English. I just found quite a major mistake in my translation of version III (since corrected), and you might well find that using my translation puts you on the wrong track from the start. If you want to learn Old English, the best place to start is The Cambridge Old English Reader by Richard Marsden (Cambridge University Press, 2002). This is a good beginner's textbook for several reasons: it has a very wide variety of texts, it's the most recent reader I know, it treats a newcomer to the language very gently and the author was very generous in his marking of my essays.

Those words of caution aside, Old English is a great language, and much easier to learn than Latin. I'm glad that you're dipping your toe in the water.

piosenniel · 09-20-2006, 04:13 AM

Thanks for the effort you've put into this, Squatter. And thanks for the referral to the The Cambridge Old English Reader - I googled it and will most likely see about getting it.

I've been using THIS and THIS to puzzle out words and parse meanings. And often times with rather hilarious results . . .

~*~ pio

Aiwendil · 09-20-2006, 09:34 AM

Okay, words of caution noted.

I still intend to try translating these texts once I've gotten a sufficient start in the tongue, and I will still keep your versions at hand, but I won't take them as the infallible "solutions".

I've so far been working out of the Introduction to Old English by Peter Baker and the Old English Grammar and Reader by Robert Diamond, but I will keep an eye out for Marsden's book as well.

Bêthberry · 09-21-2006, 10:17 AM

Does Christopher Tolkien give a reason why he does not translate the passages? Was he unable to translate them to his satisfaction? Given that he extrapolated for The Silm, it seems a bit strange to maintain silence here.

Not that I really mean to entertain a discussion over what either Tolkien intended.

Of course, Tolkien fils' reticence is Squatter's and ours gain. Many thanks.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 09-22-2006, 04:08 AM

C.T. states that they follow very closely the Modern English annals to which they are an appendix. Being a naturally distrustful and pedantic individual, I wanted to prove that to myself. Christopher Tolkien is a retired philologist, and although he did not share his father's stature in the profession I'm fairly sure that he could have come up with a better translation than I have in about a tenth of the time. I think it most likely that he was trying to save space. Besides, JRRT would have liked to see his fans learning Old English; probably more than he would have liked to see them learning Sindarin or discussing his fiction at exhaustive length.

09-20-2006, 03:04 AM	#2
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Caveat lector I'm glad you like it, Aiwendil. Thanks for the support: I was beginning to think that nobody was interested. I cannot advise too strongly against using my translations to practice Old English. I just found quite a major mistake in my translation of version III (since corrected), and you might well find that using my translation puts you on the wrong track from the start. If you want to learn Old English, the best place to start is The Cambridge Old English Reader by Richard Marsden (Cambridge University Press, 2002). This is a good beginner's textbook for several reasons: it has a very wide variety of texts, it's the most recent reader I know, it treats a newcomer to the language very gently and the author was very generous in his marking of my essays. Those words of caution aside, Old English is a great language, and much easier to learn than Latin. I'm glad that you're dipping your toe in the water. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

09-20-2006, 04:13 AM	#3
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Thanks for the effort you've put into this, Squatter. And thanks for the referral to the The Cambridge Old English Reader - I googled it and will most likely see about getting it. I've been using THIS and THIS to puzzle out words and parse meanings. And often times with rather hilarious results . . . ~*~ pio __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

09-21-2006, 10:17 AM	#5
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Does Christopher Tolkien give a reason why he does not translate the passages? Was he unable to translate them to his satisfaction? Given that he extrapolated for The Silm, it seems a bit strange to maintain silence here. Not that I really mean to entertain a discussion over what either Tolkien intended. Of course, Tolkien fils' reticence is Squatter's and ours gain. Many thanks. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

09-22-2006, 04:08 AM	#6
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Why no translation? C.T. states that they follow very closely the Modern English annals to which they are an appendix. Being a naturally distrustful and pedantic individual, I wanted to prove that to myself. Christopher Tolkien is a retired philologist, and although he did not share his father's stature in the profession I'm fairly sure that he could have come up with a better translation than I have in about a tenth of the time. I think it most likely that he was trying to save space. Besides, JRRT would have liked to see his fans learning Old English; probably more than he would have liked to see them learning Sindarin or discussing his fiction at exhaustive length. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

09-19-2006, 11:25 AM	#1
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Thanks, Squatter! It has always irked me, as well, that Christopher left those untranslated. I've been working on learning Old English - now I can use these texts as practice, with a 'solution' to check my work against.

09-20-2006, 09:34 AM	#4
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Okay, words of caution noted. I still intend to try translating these texts once I've gotten a sufficient start in the tongue, and I will still keep your versions at hand, but I won't take them as the infallible "solutions". I've so far been working out of the Introduction to Old English by Peter Baker and the Old English Grammar and Reader by Robert Diamond, but I will keep an eye out for Marsden's book as well.