Why did the Nazgul not succeed in Bree and on Weathertop? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The 1,000 Reader · 09-11-2006, 04:04 PM

There's a problem with that though. Fear or not, the Nazgul could still just shiv Frodo, which they did. Also, I doubt that Aragorn could have vanquished any Nazgul at that point with a broken blade. If anything, he'd be vanquished.

Raynor · 10-04-2006, 01:15 PM

This passage in TTT is rather puzzling, seeing how Mordor was desolate at the time of the making of the swords:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The departure of Boromir, TTT

They were borne by the hobbits. Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor

I found another interesting quote in the Reader's companion; it sheds more light on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chapter 6: THE BATTLE OF THE PELENNOR FIELDS, page 564, LotR Companion, by Hammond and Scull

On 18 April and 6 May 1963, Tolkien wrote to Anneke C. Kloos-Adriaansen and P. Kloos that the incidents of the witch-king in Book I, Chapter 12, and of Merry's sword in the present chapter:

Quote:

were intended to be integrated with the entire mytho-historical background, events in an agelong war. Frodo received his wound from the witch-king under Wheatertop, the bulwark of the ancient fortified line made by the Numenoreans against his kingdom; Meriadoc's dagger was taken from the gravemounds of the same people. It was made by smiths who knew all about Sauron and his servants, and made in prophetic vision or hope of ending just as it did. [spelling sic, courtesy of Christopher Tolkien]

alatar · 02-19-2008, 08:55 PM

Surely a frequent poster to the Movies section will just love to read this, but the more I read it, the more I don't get the shiv at Weathertop.

Assuming we all know what does take place, let's recap what could have fared for fair Frodo as the Nazgul approach on Weathertop:

Like every other hobbit on the scene, he swoons. Does the Witch-King stab his prone body? Can the King even see the hobbit?

Frodo does not put on the Ring and stands his ground, sword and brand in hand with elvish words on his lips. Does the Witch-King attack?

He gets shivved, Ring on, and dies immediately. What then?

What happens if the Witch-King hits his mark? If Frodo dies, wouldn't another of the party take the Ring to bear? Would Aragorn not be a somewhat better bearer ("Merry, Sam, Pip - we must bury the fallen. Why don't you guys start while I search for some...ah...athelas" Aragorn runs off eastward when their backs are turned.)? The Nazgul flee, and so the Ring stays with Frodo. If Frodo were to become a wraith, could he carry the Ring to the Nine?

Surely Frodo had the luck on that hill, but think that the Witch-King lucked out as well. By not killing him on Weathertop, and by horse-surfing the Bruinen, the Witch-King sets up the conditions for Frodo to hand deliver the Ring to its Master.

Conspiracy indeed.

William Cloud Hicklin · 02-19-2008, 09:11 PM

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but they are able to cut the Hobbit's pillows, so they must have some physical power.

Um, no. That was Bill Ferney, the Isengarder, and (probably) Harry Goatleaf.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 02-20-2008, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Um, no. That was Bill Ferney, the Isengarder, and (probably) Harry Goatleaf.

Really? What's your support for this theory?

I know, there is that thing with them being afraid of attacking the Inn, but... I am not sure whether I'd buy this. "He's a thief, he's a liar, but he's not a murderer."

Sir Kohran · 02-20-2008, 08:21 AM

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(Okay, it's laughable beyond even disbelief in the PJ adaptation!)

Actually I think it makes some more sense there, as in the PJ adaptation Aragorn actually has a proper sword in addition to a torch.

Does anyone know why Tolkien chose to have Aragorn, supposedly the best swordsman at the time and a man on an incredibly important and dangerous mission, go virtually unarmed?

William Cloud Hicklin · 02-20-2008, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin
Um, no. That was Bill Ferney, the Isengarder, and (probably) Harry Goatleaf.

Really? What's your support for this theory?

'What will happen?' said Merry. 'Will they attack the inn?'
'No, I think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too.'

PJ's Ringwraiths are too corporeal, too physical: he tried to make them undead warriors rather than spectres of fear. If you think of the Black Riders as *ghosts* (cf Letter 210) they make much more sense.

09-11-2006, 04:04 PM	#1
The 1,000 Reader Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: I don't know. Eastern ME doesn't have maps. Posts: 527	There's a problem with that though. Fear or not, the Nazgul could still just shiv Frodo, which they did. Also, I doubt that Aragorn could have vanquished any Nazgul at that point with a broken blade. If anything, he'd be vanquished. __________________ "And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains

02-19-2008, 08:55 PM	#3
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Surely a frequent poster to the Movies section will just love to read this, but the more I read it, the more I don't get the shiv at Weathertop. Assuming we all know what does take place, let's recap what could have fared for fair Frodo as the Nazgul approach on Weathertop: Like every other hobbit on the scene, he swoons. Does the Witch-King stab his prone body? Can the King even see the hobbit? Frodo does not put on the Ring and stands his ground, sword and brand in hand with elvish words on his lips. Does the Witch-King attack? He gets shivved, Ring on, and dies immediately. What then? What happens if the Witch-King hits his mark? If Frodo dies, wouldn't another of the party take the Ring to bear? Would Aragorn not be a somewhat better bearer ("Merry, Sam, Pip - we must bury the fallen. Why don't you guys start while I search for some...ah...athelas" Aragorn runs off eastward when their backs are turned.)? The Nazgul flee, and so the Ring stays with Frodo. If Frodo were to become a wraith, could he carry the Ring to the Nine? Surely Frodo had the luck on that hill, but think that the Witch-King lucked out as well. By not killing him on Weathertop, and by horse-surfing the Bruinen, the Witch-King sets up the conditions for Frodo to hand deliver the Ring to its Master. Conspiracy indeed. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.