The Lord of the Bible?

[Nogrod]

Making generalisations with history is always a bit dangerous...

I visited Newgrange (in Ireland) some ten years ago. It had taken the people there something like two hundred years to build it - more than four thousand years ago. They probably were not thinking that as our fleeting culture is just about to die, so let's do this in a hurry. They must have been optimists in our sense of the word used here.

The counter example.

Adolf Hitler and his visions of the eternal Germany, to be realised with the help of Mr. Speer. The eternal monumets being imagined and in some cases begun by the third Reich... Were they optimists or pessimists? Or where they more vaguely the culture that did not believe to make for any lasting mark, and thence craved for any marks to out-count the days of their makers?

The urge to be personally remembered is in fact more a product of modern secular society, or indeed a vain and self-centred society, witness the current Cult of Personality.

Exactly. We must bear in mind that even the idea of "myself" as a self-centered notion is a new invention... The feeling of "me" today as the center of individuality was for the ancient Greeks and Romans the animality in us. Emotions and feelings happen to us and are not governed by us. They thought that a human was a human only when he (yes, he!) shut down the thrives and desires and was thinking things with the reason (differentia specifica of the humans).

In that world one couldn't think of being the center of all, but needed just to find his place in the order of the universe...

So there was no possibility of being optimistic or pessimistic on a grander scale then. Individual personality is a modern idea...

[Lalaith]

Just an aside on the rebirth/hope issue.
I don't pretend to be an expert on paganism in general but I do know a bit about the Norse mythical cycle. One of the problems in trying to establish just what the Vikings believed in terms of religion is that most of what we know about it today was written down during the Christian period. Snorri Sturluson, who wrote so much of what we rely on, was a 13th century historian, and a Christian (albeit unusually for that time, a secular individual rather than a cleric).

Also, Norse paganism and Christianity co-existed for several hundred years in the Viking world. Viking society had not converted as whole until around 900-1000 AD, while allowing individuals who had turned from the "old belief" to practice their new religion.
Scholars believe that some aspects of the mythological cycle - particularly the death and rebirth of Baldr - may have been injected later, as part of a Christianising influence.
I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing were true for other "pagan" belief systems. (I don't even know how we are defining the word pagan anyway. "Stuff our ancestors used to believe"? It seems a bit too vague, the old Norse religion has for example not much to do with the nature-based religion many people I know practice today, often called paganism)

As for eternal monuments (v. interesting points, Noggie...) Ozymandias springs to mind...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Also, Norse paganism and Christianity co-existed for several hundred years in the Viking world. Viking society had not converted as whole until around 900-1000 AD, while allowing individuals who had turned from the "old belief" to practice their new religion.
Scholars believe that some aspects of the mythological cycle - particularly the death and rebirth of Baldr - may have been injected later, as part of a Christianising influence.

Good question, I was waiting for that one! It's always worth bearing in mind that things may have been out in later to add some Christianity to the tales. However, that's one idea, and there are two more.

Secondly, that Christian culture built on what existed. You can see this did happen - many churches (if not all of the oldest churches) are built on pagan sites - evidence such as circular churchyards and being built on mounds betrays the original purpose of sites. A good example of this is a chapel built on a large barrow or cursus at Carnac. Glastonbury Tor is another. Quite wisely, early Christians sought to work with what already existed, by linking exisiting belief into the new one. Bit like Tolkien's idea that all myth was Christian, eh? Cultural assimilation? Missionaries even do it today - some of the Evangelical churches in Africa have bound in Animism to their faith (with some notable horrible results too, unfortunately). I'd say this was the most likely theory, as it seems to be the common way with conquerors throughout time - marry the local women, learn a bit of the language, make the natives see that their faith is an inferior version of the new one.

The other idea is that Christianity in fact has many common roots with pagan faiths. There's a theory that Christianity was based on Mithraism, as the two shared so many similarities. Its a theory that's worth looking up as there is so much common detail it would take all day to list it here! And going back to Norse myths, some have said that Odin was christianised in the tale where he hangs on Yggradsil for nine nights, saying that the writers tried to link Odin to Christ's crucifixion. However archaeological evidence from the discovery of Tollund Man shows that a common form of sacrifice was to hang someone (who would be considered very privileged) from a tree in a similar fashion, and tied there by their hair. Maybe 'crucifixion' was seen by Romans in Gaul and beyond and brought to the Middle east? Maybe it was just common around the world at that time?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Adolf Hitler and his visions of the eternal Germany, to be realised with the help of Mr. Speer. The eternal monumets being imagined and in some cases begun by the third Reich... Were they optimists or pessimists? Or where they more vaguely the culture that did not believe to make for any lasting mark, and thence craved for any marks to out-count the days of their makers?

Good example there, of course the Reich was to have lasted a Thousand Years. And Speer conceived Nuremberg as the ultimate city to celebrate it. The Nazis had incredible self belief and looked a long way into the future. Of course it lasted about 12 years in the end.

[The Saucepan Man]

Interesting though it is, the discussion is spiralling away from LotR and Tolkien at present. Please keep your posts on theme.