The Lord of the Bible?

[mark12_30]

Before I forget... Regarding The White City. Is it a Holy City? Good question. What jumps out at me is that the descendants of The Silver Tree (Telperion, right? ) grew there.

Strider's song--
"The Light upon the Silver Tree
Fell like bright rain in gardens of the kings of old."

"O Gondor, Gondor, shall men behold the silver tree
or west wind blow again between the mountains and the sea?"

In addition to the healing and the tactical victories-- The finding of the scion of the Silver Tree, up in the mountains, sealed/ proved/ verified Aragorn's claim. And under his reign, the white tree (A white tree) flowered in Minas Tirith again.

Now having said all that-- how can I resist?-- rewind to the age of the trees, in Valinor. Paradise-- a garden-- shining with the light of those two trees.

There was another garden, a paradise, containing two particular, peculiar trees. There was the tree of knowledge of good and evil; and there was the tree of life.

[davem]

Having had time to consider my sins I hope I will be allowed to return to the debate

Originally Posted by Mark

There was another garden, a paradise, containing two particular, peculiar trees. There was the tree of knowledge of good and evil; and there was the tree of life.

I think we must accept this as the origin of The White Tree of Gondor. A reading of Carpenter's Biography & the Letters will demonstrate beyond any doubt that Tolkien never actually encountered a tree anywhere else. Trees are entirely absent in England (apart from one special one that belongs to Her Majesty the Queen (Gawd Bless 'er) – but this fact has only been revealed recently under the Thirty Year Rule & its existence would not have been known to Tolkien.

There are certainly no mentions of trees in Northern mythology or folklore, so it is impossible that Tolkien could have gotten the idea there either. (Its fairly clear that Tolkien was ignorant of trees as he depicted them walking around on a number of occasions & there is no mention of trees walking around in the Biblical record)

Now, an apology. I won't be able to participate further in this thread as I am currently putting together a new one: Lord of the Trousers. The inspiration for this new thread was the realisation that Tolkien himself wore trousers (he rarely, as far as we know, left the house without them) and so did a number of his characters. This use of trousers was clearly of major significance to Tolkien, as he deliberately introduced them into his secondary world. I think an in depth exploration of how & why Tolkien used Trousers in his writings – for instance why some characters wear them & others don't - would be very interesting & shed new light on Tolkien's creative life. I hope to see the thread take off (but hopefully not the trousers). I'm sure many Downers will be able to put forward examples of trouser usage (& possible mis-usage) in Tolkien's works.

[The Saucepan Man]

Davem

Shame about the continued mocking tone, but I think it does you a disservice more than anyone else here.

Look, we get your point. But does it matter whether Tolkien intended a particular parallel to be drawn or not? We can discuss (preferably sensibly and courteously) whether he may have intended it or not, but there is also fertile ground for serious and constructive discussion based on people’s personal reactions to the book.

Indeed, what you appear to have failed to grasp (although another member not a million miles from you clearly has) is that the Biblical parallels being drawn (whether the author intended them or not and whether you and/or I agree with them or not) are sparking some interesting (in my view, at least) discussions, including tangential discussions on other possible parallels and significances. You may not find them interesting, but others clearly do (whether from the perspective of authorial intention, personal reaction or academic interest – or a combination of those things). Accordingly, I really do not see why you feel the need to continue to pour scorn on the ongoing discussion, from the sidelines as it were.

You have been given fair warning about the tone and tenor of your contributions. If you persist, then you will have no cause to complain about the consequences.

[davem]

A)Well, I could respond by stating that I have had a fair amount of positive rep for my contributions here - & by some of the 'bigger hitters' on the Downs – so clearly not only is it the case that not everyone is offended by my points, but many actually agree with my positions. Hence you are not only attempting to exclude me, but a whole section of Downs members who find the point of this thread eludes them.

B)First & foremost, the whole approach being taken in this thread is something Tolkien himself condemned as ignorant & silly – breaking down the story in search of its raw materials. If I am to be asked not to contribute for making that point I suspect you would exclude Tolkien too. If I have been dismissive of such analyses I feel I see no difference (apart from a more blatantly sarcastic tone) between what I have said & what Tolkien himself said in the Foreword to LotR as regards the attempt to find WWII 'allegories/analogies' in the work.

C) If you consider 'There's a tree in the Bible & a tree in LotR so the Bible must have been an inspiration for Tolkien there' to be worthy of a serious response I have to say we will have to agree to disagree.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Closed. Debate, argumentation, and differing opinions have always been welcome on the Downs. But mockery of others' positions is contrary to the tolerance we have always shown. While the other moderators and administrators decide with me what course of action we will take, the thread remains closed.