The Lord of the Bible?

[mark12_30]

Lal, no one is questioning your freedom to post, or your freedom to speak. But the downs DOES have rules on topic versus off-topic. And my suggested topic is simple literary analysis which (IMO) should have a place in Books.

The thing we are NOT supposed to do on the Downs is have a protracted debate about religion. And that is where this thread keeps going.

When Maril had her thread on Shire-immorality ( on a family-friendly site no less) I decided I wasn't comfortable with it. So I stayed away from the thread. I'm aware of several others who did so. I could have gone in thundering; sometimes I was tempted. But what would it have gained?

I understand you have strong feelings, and as I have mentioned, you are naturally free to open a thread to discuss them. But the content of a thread is guided by the thread owner, with the mods having veto power. That's the way the Downs has always been run.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Sorry but I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of threads which people are not welcome to contribute towards. Factions and Ghettoes. Sure, discussion has got heated in this thread, but if people wish to discuss ideas which are controversial then others will wish to argue. That's what forums are about. I also feel quite strongly about freedom of speech.

I won't stop anyone from saying what they want to say on here. I merely respond to the points I feel I want to discuss, which haven't all been just critical of religion's place in LotR. I discussed the place of a Miltonic Satan earlier on.

[davem]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

The thing we are NOT supposed to do on the DOwns is have a protracted debate about religion. And that is where this thread keeps going.
.

How are you going discuss the Bible without mentioning religion?

This thread has been examining whether there is anything specifically Christian about LotR. There has been agreement that the work is generally in conformity with Christian principles & values, but any attempt to provide specific, one-to-one correspondences has faile to come up with the goods.

It seems to me that the thread you are proposing is more of a 'prayer group', where Christian Downers will examine the text for uplifting Christian analogies, & from which non-believers/critics will be excluded (cast into the outer darkness, where there will be wailing & gnashing of teeth, & rumors of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things with the sort of raffia-work base, that has an attachment. At that time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer, and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight O'clock & stuff).

At the same time, for all my criticism of the idea, I'm tempted by the idea of starting threads where only those in agreement with you are allowed to post anything...

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by davem

How are you going discuss the Bible without mentioning religion?

The question is whose religion are we going to discuss-- yours and mine, or Tolkien's? And the Downs taboo has always been, arguing about religion on a personal opinions basis-- I.E. Harry's religion is right and Joe's religion is wrong. That is not discussing Tolkien's religion; that is discussing the poster's religion.

However, there have been many (very civilised) discussions on how religion and spirituality are connected with Tolkien's work and vice versa. We have had some interesting, and very respectful, discussions between (for instance) Christians and Buddhists and Jews and agnostics and atheists. THe thread usually managed to stay focused on the topic at hand, which was the relationship of the religious/spiritual item to Tolkien's work, or vice versa.

Tolkien and everything about him, is and has always been up for discussion on the Downs. Tolkien stated his beliefs quite clearly, and quoted from the scriptures frequently, analyzing his religious viewpoint is not particularly difficult.

Most serious Downs members through the years have been able to maintain cordiality.

[davem]

The question which started this thread was:

Does anyone think Tolkien effectively stole many of his ideas from the Bible? Examples are the Balrog - Satan; Saruman/Grima - Judas; Gandalf the White resurrection; Elrond - Jesus?

Thus the thread is not about Tolkien's religious beliefs, or anyone's personal opinion on his religious beliefs. It is (& I keep trying to drag it back to this) whether Tolkien deliberately & with malice aforethought used Biblical figures 'in disguse' in LotR.

There are only two options: 'Yes, he did (the Plagiarist!) & this is the proof: (fill in the blank). Or: No, there's no evidence for any direct (& precious little for much indirect) correspondences.

Now those who favour response one have to provide evidence for their stance. Those who lean towards response two only have to demonstrate that the responses put forward by 'Group 1' don't stand up. To be able to do that they 'Group 2' have to take a critical approach.

The point being: This thread began with a question - 'Did Tolkien do 'x',' not 'Let's discuss how Tolkien did 'x'.' I think the thread you want is the latter - but you'll have to start that one yourself, not hijack this one.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by davem

It seems to me that the thread you are proposing is more of a 'prayer group', where Christian Downers will examine the text for uplifting Christian analogies, & from which non-believers/critics will be excluded (cast into the outer darkness, where there will be wailing & gnashing of teeth, & rumors of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things with the sort of raffia-work base, that has an attachment. At that time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer, and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight O'clock & stuff).

I still cannot believe you posted this.

[mark12_30]

How did you get this

Originally Posted by davem

It seems to me that the thread you are proposing is more of a 'prayer group', where Christian Downers will examine the text for uplifting Christian analogies, & from which non-believers/critics will be excluded (cast into the outer darkness, where there will be wailing & gnashing of teeth, & rumors of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things with the sort of raffia-work base, that has an attachment. At that time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer, and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight O'clock & stuff).

From this

Tolkien has produced a large body of work, incuding letters, lectures, various notes and outlines, numerous smaller stories and tales, and the legendarium. Some of this was published with his consent, some was published posthumously. Using any of this material, and, the reference material commonly used by adherents to the Christian and Catholic faith, discuss the effect and affect that Tolkien's Christian and Catholic faith had or may have had on the development of his Legendarium. Discuss his stated background, his stated assumptions, his stated goals, and his stated intentions (contradictions included).

Please do not attempt to prove or disprove the veracity of Tolkien's positions as that is NOT the purpose of this thread.

?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Helen, could you expound on post 250? I haven't got a Bible handy to check your references and I don't know the works well enough to remember.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Lal, no one is questioning your freedom to post, or your freedom to speak. But the downs DOES have rules on topic versus off-topic. And my suggested topic is simple literary analysis which (IMO) should have a place in Books.

The thing we are NOT supposed to do on the Downs is have a protracted debate about religion. And that is where this thread keeps going.

When Maril had her thread on Shire-immorality ( on a family-friendly site no less) I decided I wasn't comfortable with it. So I stayed away from the thread. I'm aware of several others who did so. I could have gone in thundering; sometimes I was tempted. But what would it have gained?

I understand you have strong feelings, and as I have mentioned, you are naturally free to open a thread to discuss them. But the content of a thread is guided by the thread owner, with the mods having veto power. That's the way the Downs has always been run.

Firstly, how could it be literary analysis if nobody is seriously analysing?

Secondly, a thread of that nature would be by nature discriminatory if it did not also consider contra-opinions. The reason I would not be comfortable with the idea is that I have always found the discussion on the Downs to be rigorous and interesting, and in discussing topics with those with opposing views I find I often come to new opinions. Closed debate does not allow that. It becomes little more than a cosy reading group.

As I've already said, I've also contributed ideas to this thread, not to mention I've had serious discussion with Raynor about free-will etc. But not closed discussion.

And I'm well used to defending controversial opinions I've put forwards. That to me is the nature of discussion, and is the only way we learn from others.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Firstly, how could it be literary analysis if nobody is seriously analysing?

I find this a strong statement. I hope it wasn't as arrogantly meant as it was written.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I've also contributed ideas to this thread, not to mention I've had serious discussion with Raynor about free-will etc. But not closed discussion.

Generally speaking, I've enjoyed many of your contributions, and had begun saying so. But you miss my point. Any thread-- RPG, games, mirth, what have you-- is supposed to be a 'closed discussion' in the sense that the thread is supposed to be 'on topic.' If someone comes in and says 'but was Legolas blonde', on a thread about Numenoreans, it's off-topic. Threads have topics. We're supposed to stick with them.

That's been my whole frustration with THIS thread. Somehow, we've traveled through a host of other threads, ghosts of threads, shadows of threads, and graves of threads, without ever saying, Gee, let's take the discussion back to the old thread (where it belongs.)

The Barrow Wight has strongly recommended that a thread-starter should follow a certain pattern when starting a thread, in order to structure the thread so that foks stay on-topic. (Clear statement of question, and sample answer, with detailed textual support.) That was probably before Mansun's time; not his fault and I'm not blaming him. So this thread was stated a bit more generally (and his questions were being refined as hiis discussion continued. Once upon a time, Downers would have respected that and worked with that, and maintained a sense of decorum.) But I'm not seeing a general respect for Mansun's topic or his questions, not for several pages now.

Instead, I'm seeing lots of desk-thumping. And I find that rather sad.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

The question is whose religion are we going to discuss-- yours and mine, or Tolkien's? And the Downs taboo has always been, arguing about religion on a personal opinions basis-- I.E. Harry's religion is right and Joe's religion is wrong. That is not discussing Tolkien's religion; that is discussing the poster's religion.

However, there have been many (very civilised) discussions on how religion and spirituality are connected with Tolkien's work and vice versa. We have had some interesting, and very respectful, discussions between (for instance) Christians and Buddhists and Jews and agnostics and atheists. THe thread usually managed to stay focused on the topic at hand, which was the relationship of the religious/spiritual item to Tolkien's work, or vice versa.

Tolkien and everything about him, is and has always been up for discussion on the Downs. Tolkien stated his beliefs quite clearly, and quoted from the scriptures frequently, analyzing his religious viewpoint is not particularly difficult.

Most serious Downs members through the years have been able to maintain cordiality.

Mansun asked:

Does anyone think Tolkien effectively stole many of his ideas from the Bible? Examples are the Balrog - Satan; Saruman/Grima - Judas; Gandalf the White resurrection; Elrond - Jesus?

And some answered No. So I think that puts to rest whether the thread went off topic.

By way of what's respectful and what's not, I might add that I have found some posts on this thread disrespectful too, but did not mention it as others brought the topic up more eloquently. Namely when posters suggested that only those who were Christian knew The Truth. Even if Tolkien thought it it doesn't mean I have to agree with that to understand his work.

And I'm deadly serious. And also apologise where I may have not been cordial.

Originally Posted by mark12_30

I find this a strong statement. I hope it wasn't as arrogantly meant as it was written.

If you want to analyse then you must consider multitudes of avenues and opinions. How can there be analysis if all agree? I'm sometimes quite fierce in how I word things, yes. But it is not meant arrogantly. As said, I enjoy the rigour of debate at the Downs.

And by the by, please do post your opinions because once they're on here they can be discussed and argued with as necessary. I've already discussed with Raynor. If other posts are more pressing just ignore them, which is what I do if someone is irritating me.

EDIT And I do mean that. I'd far rather have the free for all than closed topics where certain opinions just cannot be considered. For one, I would be unlikely to ever read such a topic, and in that case I would learn nothing. It was a previous thread on religion that got me into accepting that certain symbolism was there; as I've said, I previously saw absolutely nothing in the texts, until I was shown otherwise. I now accept that the broad themes are indeed based on Christian morality, which I did not see, and that morality is the basis of the morality I follow myself! I am as noted, not an Atheist nor one who merely wishes to cause a stink.