The Lord of the Bible?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

But davem, the problem is taking the author out of the equation. Once a book has been written, yes, it becomes a separate entity. But it's like saying that a child, once grown, does not have within him some of his parents' biological makeup.

I see your point though. If I did not know that Tolkien was a devout Catholic, would I see Christian ideas within the book? Probably, because I was raised in a rural W.A.S.P. community. That's just the way most of NY is. I would spot it because that's what I've been submersed in since I was born. You see what you're used to seeing.

But let's say that I wasn't raised in such a setting, that I didn't know Tolkien's life story, that I knew nothing pertaining to religion in either of our lives... but I still knew religion enough that I'd be curious enough to try to guess what his leanings were.

I would see Celtic nature worship in beings like Goldberry, I would see a Christian Satan in Melkor, I would see, probably, a bit of Buddha's compassion and unattachment to material goods within Bombadil. I would spot the Valar with their individual talents as maybe Greek or Roman gods. Eru would be a conglomeration of the god[s?] of every monotheistic religion. I don't know enough about any other religion to make the connections.

So your point of non-Christian Universalism is clearly accurate. There is nothing within the text to say that the work has Christian ideals in it. It is not, as I believe Raynor said, a portrait of Christ. You can't call it a Christian book, but if you read a story with underlying themes of ultimate goodness that's written by a devout Christian, those "good" qualities, whether or not they apply to every other religion, are probably going to lean more into the Christian slot of the roulette wheel.

Me too. I mean, brought up in a rural community where going to church was 'the norm'. But I read the books when I was most definitely a Christian, I used to go to church every Sunday religiously (well, you would, wouldn't you? ) and was confirmed - a big deal to me. After reading the books it was as though I'd had a revelation. There was a whole world out there that was not bound by the church, bound by rules or dogma - as I then began to see it. I saw that you could be good, and heroic, and all that other stuff just by living. The books woke me up to the older world, to the Celtic myths, to the peoples who lived in Britain before the Romans brought this Middle-Eastern religion.

I saw nothing remotely Christian in the books, and I still don't see that.

And yes, I had read the biography and I knew full well Tolkien's religion. I also knew Catholicism well as my grandmothers were both catholics - one rejected it entirely and vehemently as she was 'cast out' for 'sin', the other used to sneakily give me catechisms and the like to read as bedtime stories (sneakily as my father found this to be a bit disturbing for a child to read such stuff). And believe me, I read the books over and over and over.

So why, if the book was Christian, was it the catalyst for me not being a Christian any more? Nobody can answer me that. And its probably at the root of why I always refute that it is a Christian book in the sense of any dogmatic message, as I fundamentally find it to be anything but. It's wide open, Universal and wonderful and totally above differences of religion.

[mark12_30]

Wow.

The throad goes ever ever on.

Well, then. Will Fea's questions ever be taken seriosly? We wonders, aye, we wonders.

Here's a possibility. I could open another thread, with a narrower thesis, and see if the discussion can proceed along more orderly lines. Maybe either here in books, or, elsewhere such as in Novices and Newcomers... how pedestrian! .....and I could place in the opening post something like this:

Tolkien has produced a large body of work, incuding letters, lectures, various notes and outlines, numerous smaller stories and tales, and the legendarium. Some of this was published with his consent, some was published posthumously. Using any of this material, and, the reference material commonly used by adherents to the Christian and Catholic faith, discuss the effect and affect that Tolkien's Christian and Catholic faith had or may have had on the development of his Legendarium. Discuss his stated background, his stated assumptions, his stated goals, and his stated intentions (contradictions included).

Please do not attempt to prove or disprove the veracity of Tolkien's positions as that is NOT the purpose of this thread.

[davem]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Tolkien has produced a large body of work, incuding letters, lectures, various notes and outlines, numerous smaller stories and tales, and the legendarium. Some of this was published with his consent, some was published posthumously. Using any of this material, and, the reference material commonly used by adherents to the Christian and Catholic faith, discuss the effect and affect that Tolkien's Christian and Catholic faith had or may have had on the development of his Legendarium. Discuss his stated background, his stated assumptions, his stated goals, and his stated intentions (contradictions included).

Please do not attempt to prove or disprove the veracity of Tolkien's positions as that is NOT the purpose of this thread. :

You bring the bulldozer, the Tower's over there....

[Lalwendë]

So, no kind of critical analysis of assumptions made would be allowed then?

[davem]

The Lord of the Rings is the story of a time long ago, 'in the quiet of the world, when there was less noise & more green', a time when Elves, Dwarves & Hobbits walked the woods & fields, when wizards & warriors fought great battles against Goblins, Trolls & wicked Men, when Trees walked, & dragons took wing against the stars.

It is a tale full of heroism, courage againts the odds, of friendship & sacrifice, beauty & terror, of love & betrayal & the victory of good over evil.

Its not an allegory, its not a collection of disguised Biblical symbols, or Pagan symbols or even (loathe as I am to say it) Pink Elephantist symbols.

If people would just stop pulling it apart, analysing it, explaining it, claiming to understand or appreciate it better than other people I'm pretty sure the world would be a better place, global warming would go away, we'd win the war on terror & we'd all live happily ever after...

[mark12_30]

You have stated your opinion many times.

[davem]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

You have stated your opinion many times.

Can't have too much of a good thing...

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

So, no kind of critical analysis of assumptions made would be allowed then?

You would of course be free to start a separate thread about that.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

You would of course be free to start a separate thread about that.

Sorry but I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of threads which people are not welcome to contribute towards. Factions and Ghettoes. Sure, discussion has got heated in this thread, but if people wish to discuss ideas which are controversial then others will wish to argue. That's what forums are about. I also feel quite strongly about freedom of speech.

I won't stop anyone from saying what they want to say on here. I merely respond to the points I feel I want to discuss, which haven't all been just critical of religion's place in LotR. I discussed the place of a Miltonic Satan earlier on.

[mark12_30]

Lal, no one is questioning your freedom to post, or your freedom to speak. But the downs DOES have rules on topic versus off-topic. And my suggested topic is simple literary analysis which (IMO) should have a place in Books.

The thing we are NOT supposed to do on the Downs is have a protracted debate about religion. And that is where this thread keeps going.

When Maril had her thread on Shire-immorality ( on a family-friendly site no less) I decided I wasn't comfortable with it. So I stayed away from the thread. I'm aware of several others who did so. I could have gone in thundering; sometimes I was tempted. But what would it have gained?

I understand you have strong feelings, and as I have mentioned, you are naturally free to open a thread to discuss them. But the content of a thread is guided by the thread owner, with the mods having veto power. That's the way the Downs has always been run.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Sorry but I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of threads which people are not welcome to contribute towards. Factions and Ghettoes. Sure, discussion has got heated in this thread, but if people wish to discuss ideas which are controversial then others will wish to argue. That's what forums are about. I also feel quite strongly about freedom of speech.

I won't stop anyone from saying what they want to say on here. I merely respond to the points I feel I want to discuss, which haven't all been just critical of religion's place in LotR. I discussed the place of a Miltonic Satan earlier on.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Well, then. Will Fea's questions ever be taken seriosly? We wonders, aye, we wonders.

I ponder taking the discussion to PM so that it can be discussed instead of qualified, though I do not want to leave any interested parties out. Helen, would you be interested in helping me out with some independent study if we can't interest any others?

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I ponder taking the discussion to PM so that it can be discussed instead of qualified, though I do not want to leave any interested parties out. Helen, would you be interested in helping me out with some independent study if we can't interest any others?

Of course-- but first, let's verify who is interested.