Heroes: LOTR vs Rocky Balboa - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

narfforc · 08-31-2006, 12:55 AM

I am not still upset Mansun, that was then this is now, your ridiculing of my post has no relevence here (unless it is a feeble attempt to goad me). I am unaware of this poll you talk of, unless it was in America, which then would not suprise me to learn that Rocky is a big hero. For myself I have fought in real wars and have served with real heroes, both British and American, so my view on this is rather tainted by realism. To add further, I also boxed, winning army titles at three weights, so I even know how hard that can be. I have real boxers who I idolised, Marvin Hagler and Rocky Marciano, both I believe from Brockton. I just cannot look at an actor who is acting out a role in the relative safety of a studio and think of him as a hero. The idea of Rocky isn't even original, it is based on the life of Chuck Wepner the Bayonne Bleeder, who never won anything, but he did serve as a marine, something Stallone ran away from.

Maybe it would be a good idea to publish the results of the poll, and see whether any of them would fit the image of any hero from LotR

08-31-2006, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narfforc

Maybe it would be a good idea to publish the results of the poll, and see whether any of them would fit the image of any hero from LotR

American Film Institute's list of top screen heroes and villians:-

Rounding out the top 10 list of heroes, in order: Rick Blaine (Humphrey Bogart), Casablanca; Will Kane (Gary Cooper), High Noon; Clarice Starling (Jodie Foster), The Silence of the Lambs; ROCKY BALBOA (Sylvester Stallone), Rocky; Ellen Ripley (Sigourney Weaver), Aliens; George Bailey (James Stewart), It's a Wonderful Life; and TE Lawrence (Peter O'Toole), Lawrence of Arabia.

The rest of the top 10 villains, in order: the Wicked Witch of the West (Margaret Hamilton), The Wizard of Oz; Nurse Ratched (Louise Fletcher), One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest; Mr. Potter (Lionel Barrymore), It's a Wonderful Life; Alex Forrest (Glenn Close), Fatal Attraction; Phyllis Dietrichson (Barbara Stanwyck), Double Indemnity; Regan MacNeil (Linda Blair), The Exorcist; and the Queen (voiced by Lucille LaVerne), Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

**The Saucepan Man** · 08-31-2006, 09:51 AM

What, no mention of Scooby Doo?

08-31-2006, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

What, no mention of Scooby Doo?

He probably makes the list later on. What suprised me is that James Bond is not in there (Sean Connery). If The Hobbit was ever made into a film, young Bilbo probably could have got into the top 10.

ninja91 · 08-31-2006, 09:52 AM

The Rocky films were not good after the first one. We only thought the one with Ivan Drago was good was because a Russian got beat in the ring during the Red Scare. If you watch it today... god, it is terrible.

09-23-2006, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninja91

The Rocky films were not good after the first one. We only thought the one with Ivan Drago was good was because a Russian got beat in the ring during the Red Scare. If you watch it today... god, it is terrible.

The Rocky films will probably be remembered for longer than the LOTR films. Even the earliest film is still going strong.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 09-23-2006, 10:32 AM

Well often terrible films get rememberd longer than good ones. . .

09-23-2006, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Well often terrible films get rememberd longer than good ones. . .

Rocky I & II were not terrible, they were classics. All three of the LOTR films were good, but not great & certainly not classics.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 09-23-2006, 12:43 PM

Mansun, you sure can make me laugh

Should we not leave it as a difference of opinions?

narfforc · 08-31-2006, 09:56 AM

Thanks Mansun, the villians are interesting. The Wicked Witch of the West from The Wizard of Oz (1939) is killed by Dorothy, The parallel between this and Eowyn killing The Witch-king is quite striking. In The Oz film The Witch says: I'm melting, I'm melting, who would have thought a little girl could do this to me, she then disappears and all that is left is her raggy clothes. The Witch-king shares a similar fate, leaving behind nothing but rags. I wonder if The Witch-king thought along the same lines, that a girl could kill him, when he believed none of the great warriors could.

P.S Ninja91 is that why Rocky has come out of retirement now, the red scare is over, will he be fighting Osama bin Laden next.

Lalwendë · 08-31-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

American Film Institute's list of top screen heroes and villians:-

Rounding out the top 10 list of heroes, in order: Rick Blaine (Humphrey Bogart), Casablanca; Will Kane (Gary Cooper), High Noon; Clarice Starling (Jodie Foster), The Silence of the Lambs; ROCKY BALBOA (Sylvester Stallone), Rocky; Ellen Ripley (Sigourney Weaver), Aliens; George Bailey (James Stewart), It's a Wonderful Life; and TE Lawrence (Peter O'Toole), Lawrence of Arabia.

The rest of the top 10 villains, in order: the Wicked Witch of the West (Margaret Hamilton), The Wizard of Oz; Nurse Ratched (Louise Fletcher), One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest; Mr. Potter (Lionel Barrymore), It's a Wonderful Life; Alex Forrest (Glenn Close), Fatal Attraction; Phyllis Dietrichson (Barbara Stanwyck), Double Indemnity; Regan MacNeil (Linda Blair), The Exorcist; and the Queen (voiced by Lucille LaVerne), Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

That's an interesting list! Hmm, two female heroes and six female villains?

I wonder what it might have brought up in the UK? It's a fair bet it would have included characters from The Great Escape and Dambusters! I'm sure that Frodo would have made it into that list too, and possibly Luke Skywalker or Han Solo, and maybe my own fave superhero, Doctor Who.

Celuien · 08-31-2006, 05:40 PM

Rocky is a hero. After all, there's a statue of him. And half the city was very recently shut down for filming the latest installment to his life story.

But in all seriousness, Rocky is a different type of hero from Frodo or Sam. Rocky is a wish-fulfillment symbol - the underdog who gets his shot and against all odds, gaining self-respect in the process. I think most people have dreamt about their big chance. Rocky is the one who is given that chance. That idea has a powerful allure for 'escapist' movie audiences who have the chance to vicariously live out their fantasies through Rocky.

The heroes of the LoTR are in an entirely different category. Fighting for the greater good, as Selmo puts it, and at great personal cost. Obviously the more noble effort, but maybe not quite as mass appealing as the fantasy of going from rags to riches or from obscurity to fame as Rocky did. Given the choice, how would we choose to act? I would hope I would be Frodo, but if the question were to move from the theoretical and abstract safety of an Internet discussion forum to a concrete decision, I honestly don't know with certainty.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 08-31-2006, 05:57 PM

I have never seen a Rocky movie to the end, so I could not say wether he is a hero or not.

I normaly define a hero from the old mythology/legend standarts. A hero is a person who is endowed with great courage and strength and celebrated for his bold exploits. (yes I borrowed the wording) For me I think Hector is the greatest Hero ever. . .

Although being a Hero is often connected with fighting and such, I don't necesarily think it has to be so. . . In my view you can "run away" from military service and still be a hero no problem.

09-01-2006, 04:06 AM

From the list of heroes, I'd rather be Rocky Balboa personally. Though I can see a lot of comparisons between him & Aragorn - the biggest one being that they both fought for what they believed in with heart.

Aragorn could have easily stayed at Rivendell & lived a peaceful life without long journeys into great peril & back, but his heart was to take on the evil in Mordor to undo the wrongs in the world & avenge the deaths of his kinsmen. I do see this also in Rocky IV when Balboa decides to give up his title & go into the unknown in Russia to fight a deadly enemy (albeit on a much smaller scale to that of the threat from Mordor!) to avenge the death of his friend.

They both did what they had to do, for the right reasons, & with heart.

**The Saucepan Man** · 09-01-2006, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celuien

But in all seriousness, Rocky is a different type of hero from Frodo or Sam. Rocky is a wish-fulfillment symbol - the underdog who gets his shot and against all odds, gaining self-respect in the process.

But isn't the ennoblement of the humble (in the form of the Hobbits) one of Tolkien's major themes? The substance might be different (in that they are "fighting" for different things) but there is similarity in the process, is there not?

Sardy · 09-23-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

American Film Institute's list of top screen heroes and villians:-

Rounding out the top 10 list of heroes, in order: Rick Blaine (Humphrey Bogart), Casablanca; Will Kane (Gary Cooper), High Noon; Clarice Starling (Jodie Foster), The Silence of the Lambs; ROCKY BALBOA (Sylvester Stallone), Rocky; Ellen Ripley (Sigourney Weaver), Aliens; George Bailey (James Stewart), It's a Wonderful Life; and TE Lawrence (Peter O'Toole), Lawrence of Arabia.

The rest of the top 10 villains, in order: the Wicked Witch of the West (Margaret Hamilton), The Wizard of Oz; Nurse Ratched (Louise Fletcher), One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest; Mr. Potter (Lionel Barrymore), It's a Wonderful Life; Alex Forrest (Glenn Close), Fatal Attraction; Phyllis Dietrichson (Barbara Stanwyck), Double Indemnity; Regan MacNeil (Linda Blair), The Exorcist; and the Queen (voiced by Lucille LaVerne), Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

No Darth Vader? Han Solo? (or Luke Skywalker?)

08-31-2006, 12:55 AM	#1
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	I am not still upset Mansun, that was then this is now, your ridiculing of my post has no relevence here (unless it is a feeble attempt to goad me). I am unaware of this poll you talk of, unless it was in America, which then would not suprise me to learn that Rocky is a big hero. For myself I have fought in real wars and have served with real heroes, both British and American, so my view on this is rather tainted by realism. To add further, I also boxed, winning army titles at three weights, so I even know how hard that can be. I have real boxers who I idolised, Marvin Hagler and Rocky Marciano, both I believe from Brockton. I just cannot look at an actor who is acting out a role in the relative safety of a studio and think of him as a hero. The idea of Rocky isn't even original, it is based on the life of Chuck Wepner the Bayonne Bleeder, who never won anything, but he did serve as a marine, something Stallone ran away from. Maybe it would be a good idea to publish the results of the poll, and see whether any of them would fit the image of any hero from LotR __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

08-31-2006, 09:51 AM	#3
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	What, no mention of Scooby Doo? __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

08-31-2006, 09:56 AM	#10
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Thanks Mansun, the villians are interesting. The Wicked Witch of the West from The Wizard of Oz (1939) is killed by Dorothy, The parallel between this and Eowyn killing The Witch-king is quite striking. In The Oz film The Witch says: I'm melting, I'm melting, who would have thought a little girl could do this to me, she then disappears and all that is left is her raggy clothes. The Witch-king shares a similar fate, leaving behind nothing but rags. I wonder if The Witch-king thought along the same lines, that a girl could kill him, when he believed none of the great warriors could. P.S Ninja91 is that why Rocky has come out of retirement now, the red scare is over, will he be fighting Osama bin Laden next. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 08-31-2006 at 09:59 AM.

08-31-2006, 05:40 PM	#12
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,767	Rocky is a hero. After all, there's a statue of him. And half the city was very recently shut down for filming the latest installment to his life story. But in all seriousness, Rocky is a different type of hero from Frodo or Sam. Rocky is a wish-fulfillment symbol - the underdog who gets his shot and against all odds, gaining self-respect in the process. I think most people have dreamt about their big chance. Rocky is the one who is given that chance. That idea has a powerful allure for 'escapist' movie audiences who have the chance to vicariously live out their fantasies through Rocky. The heroes of the LoTR are in an entirely different category. Fighting for the greater good, as Selmo puts it, and at great personal cost. Obviously the more noble effort, but maybe not quite as mass appealing as the fantasy of going from rags to riches or from obscurity to fame as Rocky did. Given the choice, how would we choose to act? I would hope I would be Frodo, but if the question were to move from the theoretical and abstract safety of an Internet discussion forum to a concrete decision, I honestly don't know with certainty. __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. Last edited by Celuien; 08-31-2006 at 07:22 PM. Reason: fixing broken URL

09-01-2006, 04:06 AM	#14
Mansun Guest Posts: n/a	From the list of heroes, I'd rather be Rocky Balboa personally. Though I can see a lot of comparisons between him & Aragorn - the biggest one being that they both fought for what they believed in with heart. Aragorn could have easily stayed at Rivendell & lived a peaceful life without long journeys into great peril & back, but his heart was to take on the evil in Mordor to undo the wrongs in the world & avenge the deaths of his kinsmen. I do see this also in Rocky IV when Balboa decides to give up his title & go into the unknown in Russia to fight a deadly enemy (albeit on a much smaller scale to that of the threat from Mordor!) to avenge the death of his friend. They both did what they had to do, for the right reasons, & with heart. Last edited by Mansun; 09-01-2006 at 04:16 AM.