The Voice of Saruman

[MatthewM]

Does anybody else find Saruman's whole power over voice extremely interesting and magical?

[Boromir88]

I agree, and I think Saruman's voice fits in perfectly with Galadriel's conception of 'evil magic.' Galadriel and Sam's exchange about magic is interesting, and it sort of gives us the perspective of 'magic' from a 'magical being' herself...instead of looking at it from the ordinary non-magical Sam.

'And you?' she said, turning to Sam. 'For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.'~Mirror of Galadriel

Galadriel isn't familiar with the humanized word of 'magic,' it's something she's not familiar with. So, us ordinary individuals, like Sam, look at what Galadriel does and we think 'wow that's magic!' But to Galadriel there's nothing 'magical' about it, it's her own innate powers and her own capabilities.

And back on track to the original point I was going to make , Galadriel seems to set a difference between her magic, and the Enemy's magic. It's the 'deceits of the Enemy.' And if we think about it, she's true.

Galadriel's 'magic' (which is afterall just her own powers) is real, it's true, it's not fake. Let's take the Lembas, for instance, it actually fills you up in one bite, it's not something fake or trying to trick you. The Mirror of Galadriel, what the Mirror always shows you doesn't necessarily mean it's going to come true, but again it doesn't have the intent of tricking anyone. It'll show you the present, past, or perhaps the future. What's show in the 'time to come' may not always come to pass, depending upon choices, circumstances...etc it's possible that it will happen.

Now, let's look at what Galadriel refers to as the 'deceits of the Enemy,' which Sam would still classify it as 'magic.' But, I wonder is the Enemy's magic, really magic at all? I think Galadriel is very accurate when saying the Enemy is 'deceitful' it's purpose is to try to lie, cheat, and trick you to achieve what it wants. So, unlike Galadriel's 'magic,' the Enemy's magic isn't real at all, it's just fake baloney. And I think Saruman's power of his Voice fits perfectly into this:

Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable...When other's spoke they seemed harsh and uncouth by contrast and if they gainsaid the voice, anger was kindled in the hearts of those under the spell...

The Riders gazed up at Theoden like men startled out of a dream. Harsh as an old raven's their master's voice sounded in their ears after the music of Saruman...~Voice of Saruman

This is what makes Saruman's voice really intriguing, is the fact that it can pull the 'cover' over people's eyes. Those who harken, and listen to the voice, start hearing and believing things that really aren't happening. They start hearing distorted sounds, from what is actually truly happening. And I think the Riders coming out of their 'dream' is just brilliant description of the power of Saruman's voice...and the influence that it can hold over people.

Also, to note, that Saruman was capable of not always being in the same 'Voice' or using the same Voice. I mean, he was capable of changing his tone and using a variety of different tones to try and get what he wanted.

He got the Dunlanders on his side, so he had to of been some sort of inspirational talker. Perhaps, the movies just are cemented and twisted my mind, but I think that if the Dunlanders joined up with Saruman, he had used their hatred to pump them up and fuel their rage into joining his side.

He was of course a capable sweet-talker to try to lull and weasel his way out of a sticky situation.

And he was also capable of using power and an intimidating voice to try and use fear as another weapon of his voice.

So, Saruman's voice, fits perfectly in with Galadriel's conception of the 'Enemy's magic,' and also the several tones Saruman is able to use with his Voice to in the end get what he wants (or at least attempt to get what he wants).

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Letter #210

Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject, by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and its after-impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers.

The impression that I have from this letter is that Saruman's Voice is simply a corruption of something common/natural - logic argumentation (although used with a _lot_ of skill).

[MatthewM]

Interesting points you both make. Thanks for that quote from The Letters, I haven't read that one yet. So it seems to me that Saruman's voice was simply skill and status, in a way.

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Raynor

The impression that I have from this letter is that Saruman's Voice is simply a corruption of something common/natural - logic argumentation (although used with a _lot_ of skill).

I beg to differ with Boromir, but Saruman's Voice isn't from the Enemy. Neither Morgoth nor Sauron gave Saruman that skill; maybe it came from his being a Maia/Istari. And in lieu with Raynor, I agree that the Voice is a natural skill of Saruman's and that he may choose (either conciously or unconciously) to either use it for evil or for good.

Which makes me ask these: Is Saruman's turning to evil done unconciously or not? Did his envy of Gandalf pervert him without his knowing or noticing it--and is his wisdom not that great for him to detect he was becoming evil?

[Boromir88]

I beg to differ with Boromir, but Saruman's Voice isn't from the Enemy.

Just to point out I didn't say Saruman got his voice from 'The Enemy' (as inh e got it from Sauron or Morgoth). But was showing that Saruman's voice fit perfectly with Galadriel's description of 'the deceits of the Enemy.' As Saruman's voice was quite deceitful at times in order to get what he wanted.

[Raynor]

Is Saruman's turning to evil done unconciously or not?

Saruman followed the path of expediency that tempted Aule, Melkor and Sauron - and, like the later two, he fell and failed to repent

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, i, Myths Transformed, HoME X

Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness [of Melkor]. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of palantiri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him.

On top of that, he was also an incarnate, which emphasisez his weakness

Originally Posted by Letter #181

But since in the view of this tale & mythology Power – when it dominates or seeks to dominate other wills and minds (except by the assent of their reason) – is evil, these 'wizards' were incarnated in the life-forms of Middle-earth, and so suffered the pains both of mind and body. They were also, for the same reason, thus involved in the peril of the incarnate: the possibility of 'fall', of sin, if you will. The chief form this would take with them would be impatience, leading to the desire to force others to their own good ends, and so inevitably at last to mere desire to make their own wills effective by any means. To this evil Saruman succumbed. Gandalf did not.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Just to point out I didn't say Saruman got his voice from 'The Enemy' (as inh e got it from Sauron or Morgoth). But was showing that Saruman's voice fit perfectly with Galadriel's description of 'the deceits of the Enemy.' As Saruman's voice was quite deceitful at times in order to get what he wanted.

I think that Saruman was using his voice in much the same way that Galadriel did, but with different purposes (just as say one person may own a gun to deal with a rat problem, another may own one for nefarious purposes). It is quite possibly all down to sanwe, the skill of thought transference/telepathy which peoples in Arda possess but are usually unaware of. Elves are skilled in using this, as would be Maiar such as Gandalf and Saruman, and probably Aragorn, brought up in Rivendell; part of that skill also involves the ability to 'close' the mind to unwanted intrusion or influence, and we can assume that most peoples in Middle-earth would be entirely unaware of the need to protect themselves from such a skill! Long-ish explanation for anyone who's not yet heard any ramblings on this topic.

If we look at the instances where Saruman is speaking we can see how he manages to get inside the minds of certain listeners, usually Men, whereas those with 'sanwe awareness' are more able to shake off the suggestions in Saruman's words. Saruman then goes on to have his dispute with Gandalf where their minds are 'striving' against each others for mastery; this is not just a wizardly staring match, they are conversing through sanwe and Gandalf was likely trying to get the better of Saruman's mind - or trying to stop Saruman from finding out too much!

We can see Galadriel using sanwe too, when Boromir is unnerved by having certain thoughts intrude into his mind as though she is speaking to him. Is this deceitful of Galadriel to do this? It is just an inherent skill that some are more aware of than others, and which some are more able to use. Just that they may not always be using it for the 'right' reasons. And its worth noting that probably the most skilled user of sanwe seems to have been Sauron.

Good point about Galadriel's words on 'magic' though - as this would indeed be one of those things that Sam might think of as 'magic' but which was just an inherent but usually dormant skill.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

this is not just a wizardly staring match, they are conversing through sanwe and Gandalf was likely trying to get the better of Saruman's mind - or trying to stop Saruman from finding out too much

I beg to differ - mastering another mind is impossible even for the most powerful ainu; it constitutes an unat, something impossible:

Originally Posted by Osanwe-kenta

There is indeed no axan [law, rule, commandment] that the barrier should not be forced, for it is únat, a thing impossible to be or to be done, and the greater the force exerted, the greater the resistance of the unwill. But it is an axan universal that none shall directly by force or indirectly by fraud take from another what he has a right to hold and keep as his own.

Melkor repudiated all axani. He would also abolish (for himself) all únati if he could. Indeed in his beginning and the days of his great might the most ruinous of his violences came from his endeavour so to order Eä that there were no limits or obstacles to his will. But this he could not do. The únati remained, a perpetual reminder of the existence of Eru and His invincibility, a reminder also of the co-existence with himself of other beings (equal in descent if not in power) impregnable by force. From this proceeds his unceasing and unappeasable rage.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Does anybody else find Saruman's whole power over voice extremely interesting and magical?

No.

I am the Mouth of Sauron .

[ninja91]

No, but it is definitely moving to the point where you wonder how great he would have been had he not been swayed by evil.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

No.

I am the Mouth of Sauron .

Yeah yeah, keep telling yourself that.

[ninja91]

Mouth of Sauron... show us if you are really the real deal when you get your MOS avatar. He looks pretty pretty in some of his pics... especially when he flashes those pearly whites...

[The Voice of Saruman]

I believe the song made by Lorien describes it perfectly:

The voice of Saruman! Will bewitch those who hear, it sounds like the wind blowing the sand

Christopher Lee giving the sound of the voice is just euphoria.

[Rhod the Red]

Yes.

Once read a fascinating sort of political rhetoric comparison and analysis kind of essay. Wish I bookmarked it to link it, but there's a number of elements in the chapter on this matter.

[Rhod the Red]

Yes.

Once read a fascinating sort of political rhetoric comparison and analysis kind of essay. Wish I bookmarked it to link it, but there's a number of elements in the chapter on this matter.