Arwen's Mortality - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

radagastly · 08-21-2006, 09:29 PM

I think, once Elros chose mortality, and married a mortal, it was simply two mortals, so all their children would also be mortals. That's why his offspring did not get a choice. They were already mortal. After all, as I recall, it was not really a choice of being mortal or not. It was a choice as to which kindred they would belong to, elves or men. The mortality/immortality perk simply went along with that real choice, the Gift of Men, or the immortality of the Elves.

Annatar! · 08-22-2006, 04:42 AM

One thing i also think that Peter Jackson mis interpreted, or didn't accentuate enough concerning Arwen is that she made the choice to become mortal to her fathers heavy disgreement! In the movies he implied that she would die and that was somehow connected to the ring, and i agree with your description / analysis of the situation Legolas.
In the books Elronds' aggreivance with Arwens choice is more pronounced;

Quote:

None saw her last meeting with Elrond her father, for they went up into the hills and there spoke long together, and bitter was their parting that should endure beyond the ends of the world.

Perhaps this situation was less "filmable" to Jacksons version, but it certainly has much more effect. In my opinion Jacksons interpretation even undermines the connection between Luthien Tinuviel and Arwen Undomiel, of who's 'likeness' she indeed walked, and who she shared the doom of mortality with. (That all should have been in the movies discussions... sorry)
But yes... the choice to become mortal was only ever given to the 'Peredhil' (a term i believe was only ever applied to Elros and Elrond) but means half-elven therefore includes Dior etc etc etc, although no-one else seemed to 'make' the choice except Elros, Elrond and Elronds children.
This means that when the choice is not conciously made the decendant of Immortal and Mortal appears to automatically be Immortal? As a result; Arwens death (and the inability of the other half-elven to have children with a mortal as they are no longer in ME) signifies the end of the half-elven in middle-earth! Although the most noble blood line to ever exist continues still in both Middle-Earth and Aman!

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 08-22-2006, 05:16 AM

I think that in this case 'bitter' means that their separation was bitter to both of them, not that it created bitterness between them. In the book, Elrond is far more resigned to his daughter's choice, although he does make it a condition of Arwen's marriage that Aragorn should take up his inheritance and reunite Arnor and Gondor.

The point is that the decision is Arwen's to make. Elrond knows better than to make it for her, however painful their parting may be for him. Tolkien repeatedly points out that it's just as difficult to do the right thing as it is to know what the right thing is, and Elrond, Arwen and Aragorn are old and wise enough to do what must be done and endure what must be endured without complaint. I think that certain interpreters have missed that point. The clumsy attempts of film-Elrond to prevent a match of which he had been aware for decades would eventually prove futile and only make his parting from Arwen all the more bitter. Elrond can hardly be expected to be overjoyed at losing his daughter forever, but Tolkien's character has the wisdom and nobility to give in gracefully. Such behaviour goes against the grain of human nature, but I hope that it's still not entirely incomprehensible.

Legolas · 08-22-2006, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Why then didn't Aragorn, also a descendant from a half-elf get to choose? or if not Aragorn, as he was far too removed, why not the first few kings of Numenor?

It's in the details.

As I said, "because Elrond married a full elf, Celebrian, the choice was also extended to his children by her." Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen had new immortal blood. That's how Tolkien explains it in Letter No. 153.

Quote:

The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.

The next, hypothetical step is Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir - if they choose immortality and marry elves, do their children get to pick as well? No. Their decision had to be made by a) staying in Middle-earth (mortal) or b) leaving with or shortly after their father (immortal). Once in Aman, the bloodline's fusion into the elven is complete.

Raynor · 08-23-2006, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Once in Aman, the bloodline's fusion into the elven is complete.

Well... what if some small-statured elven girl developed a fancy for one of the hobbit ring-bearers that made it to Aman ?

Thinlómien · 08-26-2006, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well... what if some small-statured elven girl developed a fancy for one of the hobbit ring-bearers that made it to Aman ?

Or for Gimli?!

08-21-2006, 09:29 PM	#1
radagastly Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Washington, D. C., USA Posts: 299	I think, once Elros chose mortality, and married a mortal, it was simply two mortals, so all their children would also be mortals. That's why his offspring did not get a choice. They were already mortal. After all, as I recall, it was not really a choice of being mortal or not. It was a choice as to which kindred they would belong to, elves or men. The mortality/immortality perk simply went along with that real choice, the Gift of Men, or the immortality of the Elves. __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

08-22-2006, 05:16 AM	#3
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Elrond Halfelven: Father-in-law from Hell I think that in this case 'bitter' means that their separation was bitter to both of them, not that it created bitterness between them. In the book, Elrond is far more resigned to his daughter's choice, although he does make it a condition of Arwen's marriage that Aragorn should take up his inheritance and reunite Arnor and Gondor. The point is that the decision is Arwen's to make. Elrond knows better than to make it for her, however painful their parting may be for him. Tolkien repeatedly points out that it's just as difficult to do the right thing as it is to know what the right thing is, and Elrond, Arwen and Aragorn are old and wise enough to do what must be done and endure what must be endured without complaint. I think that certain interpreters have missed that point. The clumsy attempts of film-Elrond to prevent a match of which he had been aware for decades would eventually prove futile and only make his parting from Arwen all the more bitter. Elrond can hardly be expected to be overjoyed at losing his daughter forever, but Tolkien's character has the wisdom and nobility to give in gracefully. Such behaviour goes against the grain of human nature, but I hope that it's still not entirely incomprehensible. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?