Disturbing scenes in the movies

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Mansun

To be honest, I don't understand why PJ made Aragorn do it in the first place. Just another of the countless faults with the movies. But the Mouth of Sauron is still a true symbol of evil, & beyong the stage where he could be forgiven (being cruel to a level which surpasses every living thing, save Sauron & the Nazgul perhaps). I repeat again, this ''ambassador'' came to trap & crush the Aragorn's men & the rest of ME. The killing by Aragorn was a sign to Mordor:- if you want to endure more pain on us let it be so, but we have now drawn first blood. Law, order & the rest goes out of the window here, the only thing that matters is the BFME.

Like it or not had marched to the very gates of Mordor with an army, a small army maybe, but an army. By doing so he challenges Sauron, so I would not call it a trap and don't tell me that Aragorn does not wish to crush Sauron's orcs as well.
The thing is, as earlier stated, that no matter how hated a foe you are facing, there is always a set of rules to be followed. Now Sauron may not follow these rules, but as I see it Aragorn has to. Aragorn is no dark lord, he is not an easterling ensnared by Sauron. He has constantly been shown as the great, wise and honourable lord, but when he chops of the head of a messenger he cast all these things aside. Try to Imagine if Aragorn had been in war with some Dunendings and had chopped off the head of their messenger. . .

I see it as a defeat to Sauron when Aragorn swings his sword, for me it means that Sauron has successfully managed to corrupt Aragorns heart with hate.

Everybody can take a life, it is not always a heroic thing to do, it actually takes more of a person to let a hated enemy go. . . (from my point of view)

[Macalaure]

In the book, even the baddies don't kill ambassadors. Take Aragorn at Helm's Deep, for example. The Uruks could have shot one of the main leaders of the defenders with one arrow. They don't.


However,

my most disturbing scene of the movies is when the men of Faramir maul Gollum. It is extremely hard to watch for me. I could repeat what I said in the SbS, but I'll just say that is was wrong, wrong, wrong.
Dunedain that should be good behaving like orcs...

[Essex]

but the Movie mouth of Sauron was not an ambassador of Sauron neither was he there for Parley as was his book counterpart. he was there to taunt them, to bring down their hope to absloutle zero

- that was why Aragorn killed him - to stop him spouting on about Frodo being dead - his troops were probably at their lowest ebb as it was - and his companions too - (Aragorn would NOT believe it himself) - that is why he killed the MoS.

I know of no laws of War that stops you killing someone who just comes along to taunt you!

now if he were offering Parley, then fair enough. But notice Jackson does not have movie MoS do this.

Off with his head I say!!!!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

I know of no laws of War that stops you killing someone who just comes along to taunt you!

We're talking about a movie, in a fantasy world with clear distinctions between good and evil, and so I won't comment on your statement as it may apply to the real world.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Which reminds me of what I said earlier - PJ & his team should apologise for some of the scenes in the films, or face punishment from film conduct regulatory officials.... if PJ & Co. want to do the Hobbit, as things stand they can get lost & film another Gorilla movie.

I would disagree. If you don't like PJ's version of "The Lord of the Rings," then do not support it in anyway. Return your DVDs, if you purchased them, and send a polite letter to New Line with your opinions. I would prefer using my own noodle to 'censor' the films than for some group of persons, who just happened to be blessed with the ability to 'know better,' to act as gatekeepers on what I can and cannot see.

Some of the violence, specifically when MoS is executed and when Gollum was beaten, was just stupid and sick, but we at least see what was in Jackson's head and what he thought would 'work' or was needed or would get him a few cheers in the theater. We here can allow others know that we find those scenes repulsive and not in the spirit of Tolkien (though Essex may disagree, which just goes to show you that with the MoS scene, some fans thought that it was all well and proper to behead the dentally-challenged one). Not sure what more one could want.

Note that, as may be inferred from my posts, that I am no big fan of PJ's work, but it was his work, his vision and his efforts that produced these incredible films. Much of what he did was good; some bad, and there's a long list on how I would have done it (better, to be sure ). That being said, how do we know that another director would produce the Hobbit any differently than the flavor created by Jackson's team? Some producers' works may have you wishing the Hobbit were the dread pirate Jackson's work. So be careful what you wish for - you just might get it.

alatar climbs back off of his soapbox and goes for the tylenol and coffee.

[Essex]

re "Dunedain that should be good behaving like orcs..." and Alatar's point on 'Good and Evil'

I really don't think Tolkien's world is that 'black and white' (to coin a phrase).

Why should all men descendant of Numenor (ie the Dunedain) be 'good'. If that was so then Isildur would have thrown the Ring into the Fire and we wouldn't have all this trouble in the first place.....!

The same for the Elves - people go on about them being Pure and 'Good' - who took part in the Kin Slaying then?

Tolkien's world is multi-faceted - and I think PJ realised this in his work - Yes, we did have an ultimate evil in Sauron, but a movie like this does really need a 'baddie' for non book readers to see the forces of 'Good' rally against.

PS Faramir's men were, let's be honest, practicing standard interrogation techniques with Gollum! We might not like it, but it is what goes on. They're being atttacked from all sides from the forces of 'Evil' as we call them, so sometimes we might understand (but not agree with) their tactics in the cold light of War......

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

On a more positive note, I think Aragorn let the emotion & aggression get the better of him, after hearing that Frodo may have been captured & tortured by Sauron.

You seem to have a double standard here. One one hand you accept Aragorn's emotions getting the best of him, I disagree and think killing a messanger which he was is wrong, and on the other hand Gimli is not allowed to have his emotions get the best of him. He wanted to gloat and boast over his kills and he was proud of them, remember the 'contest' he and Legolas had, these, in his mind, are creatures who tried to kill him so to gloat and celebrate their victory seems appropriate if misguided.

I would also like to echo what Alatar said about PJ having his version of the film. Well stated and thank you.

Also I distinctly remember that in the theater there were many cheers at the beheading of the Mouth of Sauron so I think PJ acheived his desired effect.

The only scene that I really find 'disturbing' is where Smeagol is strangling Deagol. I edit that myself and don't watch it when I'm watching that film. It's too 'real' to me and makes me upset. But PJ was trying to show how evil Gollum was and his attitude when he took the ring, it was accomplished but in a way I don't like. So it was successful but I would have done it differently.

Originally Posted by mormegil

You seem to have a double standard here. One one hand you accept Aragorn's emotions getting the best of him, I disagree and think killing a messanger which he was is wrong, and on the other hand Gimli is not allowed to have his emotions get the best of him. He wanted to gloat and boast over his kills and he was proud of them, remember the 'contest' he and Legolas had, these, in his mind, are creatures who tried to kill him so to gloat and celebrate their victory seems appropriate if misguided.

I would also like to echo what Alatar said about PJ having his version of the film. Well stated and thank you.

Also I distinctly remember that in the theater there were many cheers at the beheading of the Mouth of Sauron so I think PJ acheived his desired effect.

The only scene that I really find 'disturbing' is where Smeagol is strangling Deagol. I edit that myself and don't watch it when I'm watching that film. It's too 'real' to me and makes me upset. But PJ was trying to show how evil Gollum was and his attitude when he took the ring, it was accomplished but in a way I don't like. So it was successful but I would have done it differently.

I think you may have deceived yourself here. Are you serious in suggesting that the scene where Gimli is sitting on a dead orc after the battle closely matches the scene where Aragorn beheads the Mouth of Sauron?? The two are like chalk & cheese. Gimli just uses insensitive humour as his emotions - if he had been using more respectable & meaningful emotions then he would not have come under such criticism. The manner in which important heroic characters conduct themselves in these films is imperative - humour & morbidity do not bode well toghether.

Originally Posted by alatar

We're talking about a movie, in a fantasy world with clear distinctions between good and evil, and so I won't comment on your statement as it may apply to the real world.



I would disagree. If you don't like PJ's version of "The Lord of the Rings," then do not support it in anyway. Return your DVDs, if you purchased them, and send a polite letter to New Line with your opinions. I would prefer using my own noodle to 'censor' the films than for some group of persons, who just happened to be blessed with the ability to 'know better,' to act as gatekeepers on what I can and cannot see.

Some of the violence, specifically when MoS is executed and when Gollum was beaten, was just stupid and sick, but we at least see what was in Jackson's head and what he thought would 'work' or was needed or would get him a few cheers in the theater. We here can allow others know that we find those scenes repulsive and not in the spirit of Tolkien (though Essex may disagree, which just goes to show you that with the MoS scene, some fans thought that it was all well and proper to behead the dentally-challenged one). Not sure what more one could want.

Note that, as may be inferred from my posts, that I am no big fan of PJ's work, but it was his work, his vision and his efforts that produced these incredible films. Much of what he did was good; some bad, and there's a long list on how I would have done it (better, to be sure ). That being said, how do we know that another director would produce the Hobbit any differently than the flavor created by Jackson's team? Some producers' works may have you wishing the Hobbit were the dread pirate Jackson's work. So be careful what you wish for - you just might get it.

alatar climbs back off of his soapbox and goes for the tylenol and coffee.

I do not think it is right for you to say what I should or should not do with the DVDs - it is starting to sound like bad manners. The films can be appreciated in most aspects for their graphics, film production & cast, but some scenes fell woefully short of being at least acceptable in every sense of the word, & I see no reason why PJ & Co. should not be challenged on them, given that they were supposedly using the works of the greatest fictional novel of all time by the author of the century, & hoping to sell it to the same people who adored these works. In some scenes, e.g. the Corsair ships where legolas fires a warning shot which kills who else but PJ, PJ seemed to be making the scenes to suit himself & nobody else. At times humour was being used by Gimli/Legolas that only represented the director's taste of humour. All-in-all a great trilogy held together by the main themes, but with cracks appearing in odd scenes.

[mormegil]

The films can be appreciated in most aspects for their graphics, film production & cast, but some scenes fell woefully short of being at least acceptable in every sense of the word, & I see no reason why PJ & Co. should not be challenged on them, given that they were supposedly using the works of the greatest fictional novel of all time by the author of the century, & hoping to sell it to the same people who adored these works.

But by whose standard? Long time book fans? Cinema fans? General public? He obviously pleased enough fans to gross as much as the film did in ticket sales and DVD sales not to mention the merchandise that went along with it. Let's not forget the mass amounts of people that ended up reading the book because of the film.

The problem here is that PJ deserves artistic license in that he can mold the work to make it his own. It is based on the book but is not the book itself. So on what basis is it being judged? Overall I think PJ did a great job and should be praised for his work, I appreciate him undertaking such a massive project. Not everything is done the way I would have wanted to see it but it simply demonstrates that we all see things a bit differently.

I think you may have deceived yourself here. Are you serious in suggesting that the scene where Gimli is sitting on a dead orc after the battle closely matches the scene where Aragorn beheads the Mouth of Sauron??

I'm thinking that the premise is close enough to see that you have a double standard on the issue. You think it's okay for Aragorn to callously and cold bloodedly murder a messanger but not okay for Gimli to sit upon an orc who he killed.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I do not think it is right for you to say what I should or should not do with the DVDs - it is starting to sound like bad manners.

I meant no offense, just stating the obvious regarding how to have your opinion heard. PJ et al have moved on; New Line may care if suddenly something were to cut into their profits (i.e. you not only return your DVDs for a refund, but then state that you will never ever patronize their business again).

Like another stated, I censor the movies using the 'next' button on the DVD remote. When the kids are watching, I skip over more than when only I am watching them. My point earlier is that if some committee were to censor the flicks then what would Essex and I have to discuss?

[The Saucepan Man]

Please remember to keep the discussion courteous and respectful.

You can criticise the films all you like, but please don't criticise other members.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

In the book, even the baddies don't kill ambassadors. Take Aragorn at Helm's Deep, for example. The Uruks could have shot one of the main leaders of the defenders with one arrow. They don't.


However,

my most disturbing scene of the movies is when the men of Faramir maul Gollum. It is extremely hard to watch for me. I could repeat what I said in the SbS, but I'll just say that is was wrong, wrong, wrong.
Dunedain that should be good behaving like orcs...

Which reminds me of what I said earlier - PJ & his team should apologise for some of the scenes in the films, or face punishment from film conduct regulatory officials.... if PJ & Co. want to do the Hobbit, as things stand they can get lost & film another Gorilla movie.

On a more positive note, I think Aragorn let the emotion & aggression get the better of him, after hearing that Frodo may have been captured & tortured by Sauron. This may have been severe already after the deaths of Boromir & Haldir to name but a few at the hands of the enemy.