Sauron's Armies

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Any idea how big Sauron's armies were in size? The movies suggest about 30,000 took to the Pellenor Fields, while another 10,000 remaining in Mordor. The book however suggests that about ten times the number which Gandalf & his 10,000 soldiers sent to the gates of Mordor was the remaining Mordor army. It also seems odd to me that Saruman was able to build an army of 10,000 ferocious Uruk-Hai, while Sauron's orcs were just mere goblins.

Where did you observe the "30,000" number? When PJ talks about the army that attacks Minas Tirith, he says something like there are at least 200,000 orcs (of the various tribes) there. You can verify his number by counting individuals in one of their formations, then multipying by the number of those formations.

It's definitely more than 30,000. Why, any backwoods maia could show as many....

Originally Posted by alatar

Where did you observe the "30,000" number? When PJ talks about the army that attacks Minas Tirith, he says something like there are at least 200,000 orcs (of the various tribes) there. You can verify his number by counting individuals in one of their formations, then multipying by the number of those formations.

It's definitely more than 30,000. Why, any backwoods maia could show as many....

I compared the estimated 30,000 orcs (& only orcs) at the Pelennor fields as seen in the film to that of the 10,000 Uruk-Hai army at Helm's Deep. It does seem to me that about 3 times the numer for the former to the latter is about right. Certainly not 200,000, if you use that logic.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I compared the estimated 30,000 orcs (& only orcs) at the Pelenor fields as seen in the film to that of the 10,000 Uruk-Hai army at Helm's Deep. It does see to me that about 3 times the numer for the former to the latter is about right. Certainly not 200,000, if you use that logic.

Not exactly sure what you mean.

I'm not sure of the 10,000 at Helm's Deep. Having watched the Battle of Helm's Deep for the SbS, it seems that no matter the number of Uruks slain, which seemingly a warrior could not help but add to the count (and don't get me started about the lack of Elvish kills!), at the end, as the Uruks make for the forest, there still seems to be way too many.

Not that I'm obsessed, but just want, like in other matters, that there be some consistency and rationality to the movie - and don't say that, well, we have wizards and balrogs, so why do we need consistency/rationality.

I mean that compared to the 10,000 Uruks at Helm's Deep, I am not at all convinced that 200,000 orcs were present at the Pelennor fields. When you compare the two armies, Sauron's army was bigger, but only by about 3 times, but certainly not 20 times as big. Though that is only what I perceived in the film, not the book.

[alatar]

I mean that compared to the 10,000 Uruks at Helm's Deep, I am not at all convinced that 200,000 orcs were present at the Pelenor fields. When you compare the two armies, Sauron's army was bigger, but only by about 3 times, but certainly not 20 times as big. Though that is only what I perceived in the film, not the book.

I agree that we're only discussing the movies. Will have to watch the Minas Tirith battle again to be sure, but from memory there were many times the number of orcs present as were at Theoden's door.

Many of the enemy weren't able to engage the poorly-led Gondorians as there wasn't room enough to close for battle.

Regardless, let's figure this out by rewatching the DVDs and describing what we each see. It would be helpful, if you were to do so, to mention the scene from which you make your determinations.

And do oliphaunts and crew count as one?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Of course it is not unknown (gasp!) for PJ and
friends to make mistakes (see direction challenged Legolas
in Rohan), so even if PJ gave numbers for the movie
they would have to be logistically reasonable to be
believable. How would 300,000+, in addition to the
needed support personnel) be sustained with weapons, food, etc.?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

How would 300,000+, in addition to the
needed support personnel) be sustained with weapons, food, etc.?

For what? The armies of Sauron were only on the field for a day, afterwhich time they were subsumed by the ooze of the dead.

And as for victuals, methinks that they found them were they lay...

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Of course it is not unknown (gasp!) for PJ and
friends to make mistakes (see direction challenged Legolas
in Rohan), so even if PJ gave numbers for the movie
they would have to be logistically reasonable to be
believable. How would 300,000+, in addition to the
needed support personnel) be sustained with weapons, food, etc.?

It is worth noting that History proves REAL LIFE battles can take place with armies in excess of 80,000; I believe there was an army once with 250,000 soldiers - not sure but may have been Norman/Viking perhaps? No doubt others will have more examples. So it is possible to command & cater for such an army in theory, but filming it all in a movie may not be so possible, unless one uses further graphics to such an extent that the movie is overanimated.

But one thing that puzzles me is why Tolkien never stated just how big in numbers the host which the Witch-King lead to battle. He only revealed that it was one of, but not the greatest, armies ever sent by Mordor. Perhaps a sign of overconfidence by Sauron, or perhaps the Witch-King? I suspect the latter had a much more active role in organising & marshalling the armies. Not that they would have forcasted the rise of the King of the Dead!