LotR2-TTT-Seq25 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elladan and Elrohir · 08-04-2006, 06:46 PM

It's interesting that while PJ left the endings (last twenty minutes or so) of FOTR and ROTK completely untouched, he basically created a whole new ending for this movie. I like the new scenes, especially this one with Faramir. It's certainly closer to his book version than before, though he's not quite to the point of harmony that he'll reach in ROTK.

I like Gollum's story arc in this movie, even if it peaks at a different point from the book. In the book, Gollum's struggle is even more complex than in the film, and he turns evil once and for all on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, due to Sam's roughness. In the movie (which of course doesn't get us to Cirith Ungol), the turning point comes when he is "betrayed" by Master to the evil punching kicking Men of the West.

As for the final Smeagol/Gollum conversation in the film, did you notice how almost all of it was ONE shot? As Gollum keeps moving further to the left and whispering to himself, the camera follows him and never once changes angles. It's not a slap-you-in-the-face-with-how-awesome-it-is shot like the sweeping Aragorn-Uruks shot at Amon Hen in FOTR, but it's still spectacular. Andrew Lesnie, the Oscar-winning cinematographer (and Grizzly Painter in "The Long and Short of It"), rarely gets enough credit for his fantastic work on the films.

The final shot, sweeping up through the trees for a view of the Dark Tower and Mount Doom, is perfect. And, of course, Gollum's Song is incredible, perfectly capturing his part of this movie and the next one.

So, was it better than FOTR? I'd have to say probably so, though it's a close call. But then again, considering that Jackson, like Tolkien, considers them to be merely volumes in one long saga, it's probably the wrong question to ask.

Macalaure · 08-05-2006, 02:44 AM

Quote:

As for the final Smeagol/Gollum conversation in the film, did you notice how almost all of it was ONE shot? As Gollum keeps moving further to the left and whispering to himself, the camera follows him and never once changes angles. It's not a slap-you-in-the-face-with-how-awesome-it-is shot like the sweeping Aragorn-Uruks shot at Amon Hen in FOTR, but it's still spectacular. Andrew Lesnie, the Oscar-winning cinematographer (and Grizzly Painter in "The Long and Short of It"), rarely gets enough credit for his fantastic work on the films.

We should also credit the superb acting of Andy Serkis, who was basically acting two different characters at the same time. I could be wrong about this, but wasn't the earlier conversation also taken in one shot, just with two camera angles?

I agree with almost everything alatar has said, except that I didn't find the Black Gate that bad and he forgot to say how unnecessary the addition of Brega was. Though Gollum was great visually and Serkis did an awesome job, I didn't like that he was simplified, since the book version is not only deeper, but also scarier because more unpredictable.

Lastly I have to say that I liked FotR much better. It was an impressive and amazingly well-done introduction into Middle-earth. Plus, it had Black Riders and Balrogs, whereas the Two Towers has lemming hyaenas.

Elladan and Elrohir · 08-06-2006, 10:07 PM

Yes, that is correct about the other Smeag-Gol scene, Macalaure. And you're right. Andy Serkis is phenomenal. There is no other Gollum.

Elladan and Elrohir · 08-08-2006, 10:52 AM

Also, just to note that the unfamiliar-looking Rohan dude beside Theoden is actually Karl Urban's stunt rider. They were supposed to paste Urban's face on top of the guy so that Eomer would be present for the scene, but forgot and left the stunt guy's face in. Not really a big deal, since he's only in like two shots in the scene.

Trotter · 08-11-2006, 12:41 PM

High,

Personally, TTT didn't do it for me. Granted, it had some awesome scenes, but I think the script was really lacking. I know that it was the hardest for PJ to do because it was the middle one, but even so... it needed a few more re-writes. Scenes that should have been short were too long, and vice-versa. Infuses was placed upon certain places and people that it shouldn't have been placed upon. And because of that this film, as well as ROTK, suffered.

Just my bit anyway...

alatar · 08-11-2006, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trotter

Personally, TTT didn't do it for me. Granted, it had some awesome scenes, but I think the script was really lacking. I know that it was the hardest for PJ to do because it was the middle one, but even so... it needed a few more re-writes. Scenes that should have been short were too long, and vice-versa. Infuses was placed upon certain places and people that it shouldn't have been placed upon. And because of that this film, as well as ROTK, suffered.

Trotter, welcome to the Downs, and also welcome to the SbS. You seem to feel as I regarding Peter Jackson's middle child, The Two Towers, of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. What, specifically didn't you like about the script (note that there is a link to the script here)? Which scenes dragged on, and which were too short?

And I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "Infuses was placed upon certain places and people that it shouldn't have been placed upon."

Thanks for posting.

Trotter · 08-12-2006, 03:16 PM

Thanks for replying Alatar!

Really, my whole beef with the script for TTT was that it was badly structured. It just didn't feel smooth to me, there was far too much cutting back and forth between the two story lines for my taste. Now I certainly realize that it could not have been structured like Tolkien's novel, given that film is a largely different medium, but changes could have been made. Personally, I would have preferred TTT to stick with Frodo, Sam, and Gollum for the most part. But I understand that Peter Jackson wanted Frodo and Aragorn to be 'joint main characters,' so to speak.
As for what scenes dragged on... Well... Helm's Deep for one! I know that is not a popular view, but there it is. I simply think that that battle was ridiculously overblown and badly staged, stealing precious screen time from 'true Tolkien' moments that could have been in the film instead. Sure, it had its highlights, but most of them were smashed under the weight of everything else! Other scenes that come to mind are the ones with Arwen and Aragorn... ugh! Granted, some romance was needed, but these scenes were too much for me! I believe that far too much time was given to their relationship in the trilogy as a whole. Others include the Fangorn scenes, the whole Osgiliath bit, etc.
Okay, I'll wrap this up. I think that too much infuses was placed upon Aragorn and Arwen, as stated above, on Helm's Deep, on the Ring's possessive power, and on Saruman's army. That's all I can think of now.

P.S. It may seem to some that I'm nitpicking TTT, and that may be true, but oh well...

Trotter

08-04-2006, 06:46 PM	#1
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	It's interesting that while PJ left the endings (last twenty minutes or so) of FOTR and ROTK completely untouched, he basically created a whole new ending for this movie. I like the new scenes, especially this one with Faramir. It's certainly closer to his book version than before, though he's not quite to the point of harmony that he'll reach in ROTK. I like Gollum's story arc in this movie, even if it peaks at a different point from the book. In the book, Gollum's struggle is even more complex than in the film, and he turns evil once and for all on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, due to Sam's roughness. In the movie (which of course doesn't get us to Cirith Ungol), the turning point comes when he is "betrayed" by Master to the evil punching kicking Men of the West. As for the final Smeagol/Gollum conversation in the film, did you notice how almost all of it was ONE shot? As Gollum keeps moving further to the left and whispering to himself, the camera follows him and never once changes angles. It's not a slap-you-in-the-face-with-how-awesome-it-is shot like the sweeping Aragorn-Uruks shot at Amon Hen in FOTR, but it's still spectacular. Andrew Lesnie, the Oscar-winning cinematographer (and Grizzly Painter in "The Long and Short of It"), rarely gets enough credit for his fantastic work on the films. The final shot, sweeping up through the trees for a view of the Dark Tower and Mount Doom, is perfect. And, of course, Gollum's Song is incredible, perfectly capturing his part of this movie and the next one. So, was it better than FOTR? I'd have to say probably so, though it's a close call. But then again, considering that Jackson, like Tolkien, considers them to be merely volumes in one long saga, it's probably the wrong question to ask. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

08-06-2006, 10:07 PM	#3
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	Yes, that is correct about the other Smeag-Gol scene, Macalaure. And you're right. Andy Serkis is phenomenal. There is no other Gollum. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

08-08-2006, 10:52 AM	#4
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	Also, just to note that the unfamiliar-looking Rohan dude beside Theoden is actually Karl Urban's stunt rider. They were supposed to paste Urban's face on top of the guy so that Eomer would be present for the scene, but forgot and left the stunt guy's face in. Not really a big deal, since he's only in like two shots in the scene. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

08-11-2006, 12:41 PM	#5
Trotter Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The South Downs Posts: 24	High, Personally, TTT didn't do it for me. Granted, it had some awesome scenes, but I think the script was really lacking. I know that it was the hardest for PJ to do because it was the middle one, but even so... it needed a few more re-writes. Scenes that should have been short were too long, and vice-versa. Infuses was placed upon certain places and people that it shouldn't have been placed upon. And because of that this film, as well as ROTK, suffered. Just my bit anyway... __________________ Trotter... the Hobbit ranger with the wooden shoes.

08-12-2006, 03:16 PM	#7
Trotter Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The South Downs Posts: 24	Thanks for replying Alatar! Really, my whole beef with the script for TTT was that it was badly structured. It just didn't feel smooth to me, there was far too much cutting back and forth between the two story lines for my taste. Now I certainly realize that it could not have been structured like Tolkien's novel, given that film is a largely different medium, but changes could have been made. Personally, I would have preferred TTT to stick with Frodo, Sam, and Gollum for the most part. But I understand that Peter Jackson wanted Frodo and Aragorn to be 'joint main characters,' so to speak. As for what scenes dragged on... Well... Helm's Deep for one! I know that is not a popular view, but there it is. I simply think that that battle was ridiculously overblown and badly staged, stealing precious screen time from 'true Tolkien' moments that could have been in the film instead. Sure, it had its highlights, but most of them were smashed under the weight of everything else! Other scenes that come to mind are the ones with Arwen and Aragorn... ugh! Granted, some romance was needed, but these scenes were too much for me! I believe that far too much time was given to their relationship in the trilogy as a whole. Others include the Fangorn scenes, the whole Osgiliath bit, etc. Okay, I'll wrap this up. I think that too much infuses was placed upon Aragorn and Arwen, as stated above, on Helm's Deep, on the Ring's possessive power, and on Saruman's army. That's all I can think of now. P.S. It may seem to some that I'm nitpicking TTT, and that may be true, but oh well... Trotter __________________ Trotter... the Hobbit ranger with the wooden shoes.