The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-21-2006, 07:42 AM   #1
radagastly
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D. C., USA
Posts: 299
radagastly is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
True, their bodies were men, but so were their souls. Evil men, to be sure, but men none-the-less. I suspect this is something we will never agree on.

Quote:
oh and what about the Numenor, they were given longer life by the Valar, so technically their date of deathes were prolonged by the Valar.
The date was prolonged, not denied. Like Aragorn eventually did, they chose the time of their dying (unless they were killed by some other means, in battle or from illness.) The date of their death was prolonged by themselves, not the Valar, if it was prolonged at all.
__________________
But all the while I sit and think of times there were before,
I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.
radagastly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 01:29 PM   #2
Gil-Galad
Psyche of Prince Immortal
 
Gil-Galad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis
Posts: 4,734
Gil-Galad has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via MSN to Gil-Galad
Well yeah, but they didn't choose their death, Aragorn wasn't like "i think i'll die when i'm 100 something", what i am basically trying to say is that Sauron corrupted the souls of the Nazgul, thus they lost their men-soulness and became shadows.

Sauron changed them bascially, turning them from men into darker things.
__________________
Love doesn't blow up and get killed.
Gil-Galad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 03:27 PM   #3
MatthewM
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
MatthewM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 628
MatthewM has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to MatthewM
Tolkien

Well...there is no denying that they were men, they were ensnared, they were controlled souls. But, I must agree with radagastly when he says they had to eventually be tried in some way-- if they were just souls you really wouldn't have been able to see them. But since one could physically see them (as their forms were real enough to have a black cloth cover around them) you can't really say they were just souls in limbo. Their man "essence" was still there...so once they died, in being controlled souls, I would think they would be tried. Whereas with Sauron, he was the controller of the evil...so he was turned away.
__________________
"Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring
MatthewM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 09:56 PM   #4
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,521
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
White Tree

Quote:
Their man "essence" was still there...so once they died, in being controlled souls, I would think they would be tried. Whereas with Sauron, he was the controller of the evil...so he was turned away.~Mathew
Well Sauron's spirit had become earthbound after the sinking of Numenor, and after the Ring's destruction he was unable again to take a physical form and his spirit would just 'roam the earth.' The Ainur can become earthbound meaning they lose the ability to change their form (as Sauron did) or the ability to construct a new form after they die (as what happens with the Balrogs, and eventually to Sauron when the ring is destroyed). Typically those who commit evil deeds are prone to becoming earthbound.

But, as far as I know this only applies to the Ainur who were the one's able to inhabit and construct other bodies.

There existance in Middle-earth was because of the Ring, Gandalf says that Sauron's power was tied in them:
Quote:
’You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that,’ said Gandalf. ’The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him.~The Ring goes South
And I think we have to accept Gandalf's words because when the Ring is destroyed:
Quote:
And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that peirced all other sounds, tearing the clouse asunder, the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in a fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.~Mount Doom
But as far as what happens to them afterwards, always seems to be the big question mark. Logic tells us just as the spirits of Men do, will go to the halls of Mandos and wait there for a period then go out of the Circles of the World.

However, I find something Gandalf says to be interesting:
Quote:
'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf and the huge form stopped. 'Go back into the Shadow that is ready for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness waiting for you and your Master. Go back!~The Siege of Gondor
I think this can be taken a few different ways. Is Gandalf telling the Nazgul to 'go back into the Shadow'...shadow meaning simply go back into the darkness...the nothingness. Or is he telling the Witch-King to die and go into the Void which is awaiting him and Sauron?

If that is the case, then that offers another possibility for the fate of the Nazgul, but I fear raises more baffling questions. The Witch-King was different than the rest of his Nazgul brethren, he was granted extra demonic force in the battle of Pelennor Fields by Sauron, the other Nazgul were not. So would this only apply to the Lord of the Nazgul. And also, we have to question is Gandalf even right about the Witch-King's fate?
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:27 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.