Reverse Gripes - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Azaelia of Willowbottom · 07-10-2006, 01:25 PM

I agree with others that, in FOTR, at least, Boromir was a major improvement. Reading the books, I just didn't feel much sympathy for him. To my thirteen-year-old mind, he was evil because he tried to take the ring from Frodo. Obviously, I dismissed him way too easily. It was evident in the movie that he wasn't corrupt himself, but had been controlled by the Ring...and then turned around and became the hero. The film really helped me to see him for who he was: just a guy trying to do the right thing. The time spent on developing his character in the movie, while not much more happened than in the book, really brought him into focus for me...

Regardless of what else happened in the TTTEE, I loved the scene between Faramir and Boromir. We don't see them interact at all in the books, unless you count Faramir coming upon Boromir's funeral boat. It was great to see their relationship as brothers come in onscreen.

And in general, I think especially on the first read-through, LOTR is a little overwhelming: so many characters all at once. It's a lot to take in. Upon multiple readings, we gain a good sense of each character...but I liked that in the movie, each character gets his or her turn in the spotlight, at least to some extent. All the various relationships get their share of screentime, and I'm not talking about just the romance. We see great friendships and families as well. Sometimes the movie gives a better sense of them than the book does, especially the relationships between siblings like Eowyn and Eomer (or, as I mentioned before, Faramir and Boromir).

In the book, it's obvious, of course, that they cared for each other...but reading a couple fleeting sentences in the expanse of the book is different from actually seeing the relationships in the spotlight onscreen.

07-11-2006, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azaelia of Willowbottom

I agree with others that, in FOTR, at least, Boromir was a major improvement. Reading the books, I just didn't feel much sympathy for him. To my thirteen-year-old mind, he was evil because he tried to take the ring from Frodo. Obviously, I dismissed him way too easily. It was evident in the movie that he wasn't corrupt himself, but had been controlled by the Ring...and then turned around and became the hero. The film really helped me to see him for who he was: just a guy trying to do the right thing. The time spent on developing his character in the movie, while not much more happened than in the book, really brought him into focus for me...

I was under the impression that Tolkien didn't think of Boromir as a 'heroic' figure, hence the evil attached to him in the books. It wasn't underdevelopment, it was intentional.

Azaelia of Willowbottom · 07-11-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _00_deathscar

I was under the impression that Tolkien didn't think of Boromir as a 'heroic' figure, hence the evil attached to him in the books. It wasn't underdevelopment, it was intentional.

I never intended to suggest that Boromir was entirely a hero...Just that the movie helped me to understand that he wasn't really a "bad guy", but human, and thus capable of falling under the influence of evil...or of doing acts of great good, like dying in defence of Merry and Pippin. I believe Tolkien thought of him the way I do: a man in shades of grey, not purely black or white, and I certainly can't deny that there was a lot of evil attached to him in the book, but there was also good, if we care to unearth it....it's just that in the books, he's competing with a lot of other elements for the reader's attention, and thus it's easier to dismiss him as evil rather than just flawed. In the movie, his character spends more time in focus, where it's easier to get to know him.

MatthewM · 07-11-2006, 03:46 PM

Wow, I just read all of this on Boromir and now I must get involved!

So many things to say. Before I start---you are all debating on the Movie Boromir mostly, and the actions he makes...I feel like most of you are referring to the movie as fact. I know this is the movie thread, but are we to just forget about the books?

In the book, Denethor didn't even want Boromir to go to Rivendell. He wanted him to stay home with his people. He much would have rathered Faramir to go-"Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave..." "Loth" is a word meaning unwilling, reluctant. So the whole thing about "bring the Ring to Daddy" doesn't apply to Tolkien's Boromir at all. It is a thing made up by the movie. Boromir came to Rivendell to seek the answer of a dream, and once he found out the answer, THEN he knew of the Ring. There's no doubt that Boromir wanted to bring the Ring back to his father (for he loved his father), but mainly he wanted it for Gondor, for the defeat of Mordor, and for "his own glory therein" (TTT).

To the most recent poster who thinks Tolkien thought Boromir as "evil"---Tolkien never said Boromir was evil. There is no doubt some negative connotation towards him in The Letters (he mentions that Faramir had “a ‘bossy’ brother” (p. 323)), however he is never deemed 'evil'. Their was nothing evil about the character. Boromir came from Gondor, he was the main defender of his City. He knew little of outside people besides those of his kingdom and Rohan. He travels all the way from his country into Rivendell, a completely foreign place with people he has never met. In Gondor they weren't even 100% sure where Rivendell lay! From FotR-- "I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay." He joins the Fellowship to GO HOME, not to steal the Ring and bring it back. We all know he wanted to use the Ring against Sauron from the start, but he was convinced at least for a little while from the words of Elrond. He starts to wonder what it would be like to bring the Ring back along the way. He was traveling with Aragorn, a cultured Ranger who knew many peoples, many lands, and many things altogether. He also traveled with Legolas, an all knowing elf who could walk on snow. The wizard Gandalf who every so often popped in to Gondor and tried to council Boromir's father who Boromir is loyal to and obviously trusts him over the wizard. You would be weary and feel a bit alienated with this company as well! Boromir had just reason to be a bit reserved and not "open up" like they were his buddies back in Gondor. Not to mention, Boromir thought of Hobbits as fairy-tale creatures in lore, the first Hobbit to enter Gondor was Pippin, after Boromir's death!

Boromir88 said something about the book Boromir being "childlike"...how is this so? I don't see that at all. He was a mature Man with opinions and prejudices, just like us all. A lot of people here say that they like the movie Boromir better than the book Boromir. I must say, I think Jackson did a great job transfering Boromir's character from book to screen. Sean Bean does a brilliant job. I do agree there are some instances in the movies where Boromir is more "humanized" (ex: the choke up in Lorien as Galadriel looks at him), but it isn't like Boromir didn't show tears or emotion in the books. If you remember, Boromir wept after trying to take the Ring from Frodo. He wept when the madness had past. Tolkien's Boromir is more than a "foil". He was intended as a "foil" but Tolkien didn't make that his only purpose. If that was the case, he probably wouldn't have been redeemed in the end. The most notable characters in The Lord of the Rings grieve over the death of Boromir when they hear of it---

Gandalf: “Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril. But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir’s sake.” (The Two Towers) ... ""a masterful man, and one to take what he desired" (The Return of the King)

Theoden: "Alas for Boromir the brave!" (TTT)

Eomer: "Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came." (TTT)

And of course there are the many words of Faramir. There you have it. There's no doubt that the act of trying to steal the Ring from Frodo was evil, but it wasn't Boromir's character that was evil. It was the Ring that made him want it, it was the temptation. That was the evil present, and in Boromir's case it was external, it played on his internal. Boromir was a hero. He was the best defender in Gondor in his time, and he defended Merry and Pippin until his death. Self-sacrifice. He was a hero.

I do wish that (like Azaelia said) that people would read into Boromir more. There is really so much to this character that few realize. His purpose, to me at least, goes beyond a "flawed character", although at least I would like people to see him as flawed (which he was) than evil (which he was not).

07-11-2006, 11:09 PM

Apologies ~ evil was a poor choice of words, 'negative connotations' was certainly a better choice and is what I meant.

He wasn't all good heart - i.e. he was only human.

doug*platypus · 11-12-2006, 08:30 PM

Of Friends, Good Leaf and a Mighty Warrior

I have to lend my voice to the movie Boromir chorus and sing Sean Bean's praises. PJ and co made the guy eminently more likeable than the Boromir who travelled with the Fellowship in the book. True, as pointed out by MatthewM there are many who mourn the passing of Boromir in the book, he says little to endear us to him while he travels as one of the nine walkers. Most of his dialogue puts him at odds with the rest of the party, who seem to spend most of their time saying "shut up, Boromir!". Not to mention his horn blowing as the secret mission sets out in the dead of night from Rivendell.

I particularly enjoyed the scene just before the Crébain arrived, when Boromir is teaching Merry and Pippin some of the finer points of swordsmanship.

I think that the friendship of the four hobbits in the Fellowship was played out exceptionally well on screen. The chemistry between Elijah, Sean, Dom and Billy was evident, and you really felt like these were four best friends alternately out having the time of their life, or passing through intense suffering with the help of one another. They were so tight that when the Grey Havens came, and it was time for Frodo to leave them, I found myself crying in the theatre for the first time ever. Also mainly because it is the most emotional moment in the book, and I was drawing on the same emotions I feel when I read that scene.

I also liked PJs cheeky allusions as to the exact nature of pipeweed. "Finest weed in the South Farthing" and "your love of the halfling's leaf has slowed your mind". Well done, although I'm sure the Professor would not have approved!

Essex · 11-13-2006, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Boromir88 said something about the book Boromir being "childlike"...how is this so? I don't see that at all. He was a mature Man with opinions and prejudices, just like us all.

Excellet points and I agree with most except your point on Boromir not being childish.

I believe he was. Maybe what Boromir88 is alluding to here is his PETULANCE, especially towards Aragorn, that to me makes him look childish. Although I must say that Aragorn sometimes shows the same petulance back towards Boromir in their arguments!

I agree that Boromir was flawed, not Evil in my opinion. Headstorong or Blinkered maybe. Did Tolkien know of a real life person like this in his days in the trenches I wonder? I haven't read any of Tolkien's history around his time during the War, but would be interested to find out if he used any real life character from the War as the basis for Boromir.....

suncrafter · 03-28-2007, 11:42 AM

Boromir88 said something about the book Boromir being "childlike"...how is this so? I don't see that at all. He was a mature Man with opinions and prejudices, just like us all.

Ya, good point.

Sir Kohran · 03-28-2007, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suncrafter

Boromir88 said something about the book Boromir being "childlike"...how is this so? I don't see that at all. He was a mature Man with opinions and prejudices, just like us all.

Ya, good point.

I would agree with you - though sometimes book Boromir does come across as childish. The bit where he angrily throws a stone in the water outside of Moria looks like a little kid stamping his foot because he can't have more sweets.

Sauron the White · 03-28-2007, 01:38 PM

Th one thing I have always been thankful for is the film completely removing any sign of Tom Bombadil. To this day I do not understand the inclusion or purpose of that character in the book. Removing him from the films was an excellent decision that I think made for a better film and a better story.

And I agree with much of what has been said about Boromir. I was never that sympathetic towards him from reading the books but changed that via the films.

07-10-2006, 01:25 PM	#1
Azaelia of Willowbottom Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: By the Sea Posts: 446	I agree with others that, in FOTR, at least, Boromir was a major improvement. Reading the books, I just didn't feel much sympathy for him. To my thirteen-year-old mind, he was evil because he tried to take the ring from Frodo. Obviously, I dismissed him way too easily. It was evident in the movie that he wasn't corrupt himself, but had been controlled by the Ring...and then turned around and became the hero. The film really helped me to see him for who he was: just a guy trying to do the right thing. The time spent on developing his character in the movie, while not much more happened than in the book, really brought him into focus for me... Regardless of what else happened in the TTTEE, I loved the scene between Faramir and Boromir. We don't see them interact at all in the books, unless you count Faramir coming upon Boromir's funeral boat. It was great to see their relationship as brothers come in onscreen. And in general, I think especially on the first read-through, LOTR is a little overwhelming: so many characters all at once. It's a lot to take in. Upon multiple readings, we gain a good sense of each character...but I liked that in the movie, each character gets his or her turn in the spotlight, at least to some extent. All the various relationships get their share of screentime, and I'm not talking about just the romance. We see great friendships and families as well. Sometimes the movie gives a better sense of them than the book does, especially the relationships between siblings like Eowyn and Eomer (or, as I mentioned before, Faramir and Boromir). In the book, it's obvious, of course, that they cared for each other...but reading a couple fleeting sentences in the expanse of the book is different from actually seeing the relationships in the spotlight onscreen. __________________ "Wherever I have been, I am back."

07-11-2006, 03:46 PM	#4
MatthewM Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Posts: 628	Wow, I just read all of this on Boromir and now I must get involved! So many things to say. Before I start---you are all debating on the Movie Boromir mostly, and the actions he makes...I feel like most of you are referring to the movie as fact. I know this is the movie thread, but are we to just forget about the books? In the book, Denethor didn't even want Boromir to go to Rivendell. He wanted him to stay home with his people. He much would have rathered Faramir to go-"Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave..." "Loth" is a word meaning unwilling, reluctant. So the whole thing about "bring the Ring to Daddy" doesn't apply to Tolkien's Boromir at all. It is a thing made up by the movie. Boromir came to Rivendell to seek the answer of a dream, and once he found out the answer, THEN he knew of the Ring. There's no doubt that Boromir wanted to bring the Ring back to his father (for he loved his father), but mainly he wanted it for Gondor, for the defeat of Mordor, and for "his own glory therein" (TTT). To the most recent poster who thinks Tolkien thought Boromir as "evil"---Tolkien never said Boromir was evil. There is no doubt some negative connotation towards him in The Letters (he mentions that Faramir had “a ‘bossy’ brother” (p. 323)), however he is never deemed 'evil'. Their was nothing evil about the character. Boromir came from Gondor, he was the main defender of his City. He knew little of outside people besides those of his kingdom and Rohan. He travels all the way from his country into Rivendell, a completely foreign place with people he has never met. In Gondor they weren't even 100% sure where Rivendell lay! From FotR-- "I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay." He joins the Fellowship to GO HOME, not to steal the Ring and bring it back. We all know he wanted to use the Ring against Sauron from the start, but he was convinced at least for a little while from the words of Elrond. He starts to wonder what it would be like to bring the Ring back along the way. He was traveling with Aragorn, a cultured Ranger who knew many peoples, many lands, and many things altogether. He also traveled with Legolas, an all knowing elf who could walk on snow. The wizard Gandalf who every so often popped in to Gondor and tried to council Boromir's father who Boromir is loyal to and obviously trusts him over the wizard. You would be weary and feel a bit alienated with this company as well! Boromir had just reason to be a bit reserved and not "open up" like they were his buddies back in Gondor. Not to mention, Boromir thought of Hobbits as fairy-tale creatures in lore, the first Hobbit to enter Gondor was Pippin, after Boromir's death! Boromir88 said something about the book Boromir being "childlike"...how is this so? I don't see that at all. He was a mature Man with opinions and prejudices, just like us all. A lot of people here say that they like the movie Boromir better than the book Boromir. I must say, I think Jackson did a great job transfering Boromir's character from book to screen. Sean Bean does a brilliant job. I do agree there are some instances in the movies where Boromir is more "humanized" (ex: the choke up in Lorien as Galadriel looks at him), but it isn't like Boromir didn't show tears or emotion in the books. If you remember, Boromir wept after trying to take the Ring from Frodo. He wept when the madness had past. Tolkien's Boromir is more than a "foil". He was intended as a "foil" but Tolkien didn't make that his only purpose. If that was the case, he probably wouldn't have been redeemed in the end. The most notable characters in The Lord of the Rings grieve over the death of Boromir when they hear of it--- Gandalf: “Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril. But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir’s sake.” (The Two Towers) ... ""a masterful man, and one to take what he desired" (The Return of the King) Theoden: "Alas for Boromir the brave!" (TTT) Eomer: "Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came." (TTT) And of course there are the many words of Faramir. There you have it. There's no doubt that the act of trying to steal the Ring from Frodo was evil, but it wasn't Boromir's character that was evil. It was the Ring that made him want it, it was the temptation. That was the evil present, and in Boromir's case it was external, it played on his internal. Boromir was a hero. He was the best defender in Gondor in his time, and he defended Merry and Pippin until his death. Self-sacrifice. He was a hero. I do wish that (like Azaelia said) that people would read into Boromir more. There is really so much to this character that few realize. His purpose, to me at least, goes beyond a "flawed character", although at least I would like people to see him as flawed (which he was) than evil (which he was not). __________________ "Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring Last edited by MatthewM; 07-12-2006 at 03:30 PM.

11-12-2006, 08:30 PM	#6
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Of Friends, Good Leaf and a Mighty Warrior I have to lend my voice to the movie Boromir chorus and sing Sean Bean's praises. PJ and co made the guy eminently more likeable than the Boromir who travelled with the Fellowship in the book. True, as pointed out by MatthewM there are many who mourn the passing of Boromir in the book, he says little to endear us to him while he travels as one of the nine walkers. Most of his dialogue puts him at odds with the rest of the party, who seem to spend most of their time saying "shut up, Boromir!". Not to mention his horn blowing as the secret mission sets out in the dead of night from Rivendell. I particularly enjoyed the scene just before the Crébain arrived, when Boromir is teaching Merry and Pippin some of the finer points of swordsmanship. I think that the friendship of the four hobbits in the Fellowship was played out exceptionally well on screen. The chemistry between Elijah, Sean, Dom and Billy was evident, and you really felt like these were four best friends alternately out having the time of their life, or passing through intense suffering with the help of one another. They were so tight that when the Grey Havens came, and it was time for Frodo to leave them, I found myself crying in the theatre for the first time ever. Also mainly because it is the most emotional moment in the book, and I was drawing on the same emotions I feel when I read that scene. I also liked PJs cheeky allusions as to the exact nature of pipeweed. "Finest weed in the South Farthing" and "your love of the halfling's leaf has slowed your mind". Well done, although I'm sure the Professor would not have approved! __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

03-28-2007, 11:42 AM	#8
suncrafter Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 20	Boromir88 said something about the book Boromir being "childlike"...how is this so? I don't see that at all. He was a mature Man with opinions and prejudices, just like us all. Ya, good point. __________________ My cartoon website with ORCS!!!: http://www.normandcompany.com Stop in when you get the chance.

07-11-2006, 11:09 PM	#5
_00_deathscar Guest Posts: n/a	Apologies ~ evil was a poor choice of words, 'negative connotations' was certainly a better choice and is what I meant. He wasn't all good heart - i.e. he was only human.

03-28-2007, 01:38 PM	#10
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Th one thing I have always been thankful for is the film completely removing any sign of Tom Bombadil. To this day I do not understand the inclusion or purpose of that character in the book. Removing him from the films was an excellent decision that I think made for a better film and a better story. And I agree with much of what has been said about Boromir. I was never that sympathetic towards him from reading the books but changed that via the films.