Life or Honor? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 07-04-2006, 09:04 AM

Now to throw in a wrinkle. It has been said that humility is 'knowing oneself, both flaws and strengths'. But that definition seems insufficient. Perhaps it would be best to add the following qualifier: '... and valuing them appropriately.'

Why bring that into the discussion? Because the same definition could just as easily be attributed to "good pride". Do they then mean the same thing? Maybe it would help to include some LotR examples.

Gandalf has this humility. Does Aragorn? Or does he not have good pride? ... which seems synonymous with Gurthang's honor of self. I think your distinction is useful, Gurthang.

But the way we're using the concepts seems a little bit like we're inventing ideas as we go (no bad thing except we separate ourselves from general understandings); I hope we can remain understandable to other BD'rs regarding LotR, not to mention RPrs (like me), because in the subcreation of new Middle Earth stories, RPrs are constantly running headlong into this stuff, and it's no easy thing to find our way, especially if we desire to write in the spirit of Tolkien.

That's a round-about way of getting us back to the main question:

Does your typical Gondorian value honor above life, or vice versa? In other words, is it more important to your average dweller in Minas Tirith, or Pelargir, or Dol Amroth, to:

1. be considered to be upright?
2. be upright regardless of what others think?
3. stay alive?

Obviously, I'm partly asking for a stretch of imagination, but I would hope that Tolkien provided some clues. I for one intend to see what I can discover in the books; maybe you can help?

07-04-2006, 09:04 AM	#9
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Now to throw in a wrinkle. It has been said that humility is 'knowing oneself, both flaws and strengths'. But that definition seems insufficient. Perhaps it would be best to add the following qualifier: '... and valuing them appropriately.' Why bring that into the discussion? Because the same definition could just as easily be attributed to "good pride". Do they then mean the same thing? Maybe it would help to include some LotR examples. Gandalf has this humility. Does Aragorn? Or does he not have good pride? ... which seems synonymous with Gurthang's honor of self. I think your distinction is useful, Gurthang. But the way we're using the concepts seems a little bit like we're inventing ideas as we go (no bad thing except we separate ourselves from general understandings); I hope we can remain understandable to other BD'rs regarding LotR, not to mention RPrs (like me), because in the subcreation of new Middle Earth stories, RPrs are constantly running headlong into this stuff, and it's no easy thing to find our way, especially if we desire to write in the spirit of Tolkien. That's a round-about way of getting us back to the main question: Does your typical Gondorian value honor above life, or vice versa? In other words, is it more important to your average dweller in Minas Tirith, or Pelargir, or Dol Amroth, to: 1. be considered to be upright? 2. be upright regardless of what others think? 3. stay alive? Obviously, I'm partly asking for a stretch of imagination, but I would hope that Tolkien provided some clues. I for one intend to see what I can discover in the books; maybe you can help?