Battle of the Somme 90th Anniversary July 1st - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mark12_30 · 07-04-2006, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

And I had quite forgotten that Tolkien would have ridden .. never think of him as being really involved with horses because he describes Glorfindel's horse as white.

Do you mean because an englishman would have used the term "grey"? Riding a horse in the line of duty doesn't require that he had been immersed in the equestrian culture.

Asfaloth and Frodo had a few different ideas as to what should be done, and perhaps Tolkien's situation had been similar. I doubt Tolkien had followed the hounds. When the hunter cleared the old trenches, I wonder if Tolkien took a fistful of mane, just as Frodo did.

**The Saucepan Man** · 07-04-2006, 09:39 AM

Here are some interesting sites describing the use of horses in WW1:

Horses in WW1

The Forgotten Army

It seems that, while cavalry were still considered the superior military units at the outset of the war, this very quickly changed with the onset of trench warfare, and that cavalry charges were rare after the charge at Mons in August 1914. Throughout the remainder of the war, horses were used mainly for transport. I doubt that they were commonly used on the Western Front for reconnaissance purposes, since trenches, barbed wire and craters would have rendered this difficult, although it's possible I suppose. I couldn't see any mention of that in the articles linked to above though.

I did, however, find the following piece, which indicates that Australian troops used light horse brigades for reconnaissance purposes:

THE 3RD LIGHT HORSE BRIGADE SCOUT GROUP WW1

Mithalwen · 07-04-2006, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Do you mean because an englishman would have used the term "grey"? Riding a horse in the line of duty doesn't require that he had been immersed in the equestrian culture.

Asfaloth and Frodo had a few different ideas as to what should be done, and perhaps Tolkien's situation had been similar. I doubt Tolkien had followed the hounds. When the hunter cleared the old trenches, I wonder if Tolkien took a fistful of mane, just as Frodo did.

Could be .. but I was very immersed in equestrian culture at the time I first read the books and it jarred as a very basic error from such a perfectionist! However of course it is easy to forget that when Tolkien was young horses were still very much a method of transport.

I don't think a good hunter would have had much problem with the old trenches as far as simple width goes... the quality is in coping with whatever it is faced with and with the rider - although a jump across something is much easier to sit than up and over.... showjumpers generally regard water jumps as easier obstacles...

davem · 07-04-2006, 01:48 PM

I'm sure Tolkien was aware of the Grey=White thing. My own suspicion is that 'White' was used for its symbolic value. In the Mythology White is 'purer' than Grey (Gandalf/Saruman thing).

Mithalwen · 07-04-2006, 02:05 PM

Taht is a possibility that occurred much later especially since the horses of Eomer's Eored are greys . I think only Asfaloth the elf-horse and Shadowfax are white as is Gandalf's horse inthe Hobbit if I remember correctly.

Also it stregthens the contrast between the black horses of the Nazgul. Thier darkness and Glorfindel's white light... which Frodo also will acquire ..according to Gandalf in the next chapter.

mark12_30 · 07-04-2006, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't think a good hunter would have had much problem with the old trenches as far as simple width goes.

"Simple width" of an intact trench... or a bombed-out one? A bombed-out trench is more like a broad and structureless gash in the land, draped with barbed wire, shrapnel, and dead bodies. Definitely not something I'd want to cheerfully jump a horse over. Maybe that's why the "black riders" didn't follow Tolkien's 'lead'...

As I said, the whole story strikes me as dreamlike. If it wasn't a dream (originally!) then I imagine it took place very far from the actual battle "lines". I can't imagine any horse surviving "up and over the top", for the same reason few men survived it.

That's one reason I was hoping Squatter would chime in. Meanwhile I'll take a peek at that "Horses in WW1" link.

Mithalwen · 07-05-2006, 06:30 AM

I was thinking of intact ones. A bomb crater would be not something you could jump across - possibly scramble in and out of, but again not impossible for a really good hunter used to thick coverts as well as open fields.

However .. it isn't clear that this was an actual event, I too think a dream is more likely.

davem · 07-05-2006, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

However .. it isn't clear that this was an actual event, I too think a dream is more likely.

Possibly - but the correspondent does say: 'Fortunately for Tolkien (and us, his readers)he raced towards some old trenches which his horse, used to hunting, took in its stride.'

If it was simply a dream, why would his escape be 'fortunate'? The implication seems to be that it was a real event. And why would he be haunted for years after by a bad dream?.

Of course, the correspondent could have made the whole thing up.

***Mister Underhill*** · 07-05-2006, 06:56 AM

Quote:

I too think a dream is more likely.

The entry does say that the story is a "recurring nightmare" of Tolkien's at its outset, though it gets confusing later when the author adds a "fortunately for Tolkien..." which suggests that the prof was in real danger. Though I'm no Squatter, I'd deem it extremely unlikely that this tale describes events that really happened.

EDIT: Cross-posted with davem. This story is so outrageous that I'm sure it would have been mentioned before in legitimate sources if it had actually occurred. I'd say the chances of "accidentally" ending up behind enemy lines on horseback in 1916 were extremely small.

davem · 07-05-2006, 07:40 AM

The Reverend John Waddington-Feather is an author - found a bunch of his books on Amazon. UK.

I've also found an email address for him & have mailed him asking for more info. I'll let you know if I get a response.

Bêthberry · 07-05-2006, 08:16 AM

Who would this "schoolmaster son" be? Christopher is more commonly and correctly I would think referred to as an academic or scholar. Michael was a priest. Of what occupation is John Tolkien, son?

Feanor of the Peredhil · 07-05-2006, 08:23 AM

Perhaps what is 'fortunate' is that Tolkien escaped in his nightmare, leaving him a very jarring and memorable precident for Frodo's ride? If he had not escaped in dream, we might very well not have Frodo's ride across the ford.

On a note that interests me, it is fascinating to learn that things J.R.R. wrote were based on recurring nightmares. littlemanpoet and I recently discussed dreams in brief and the idea arose that what you remember of your dreams is limited to that which your conscious mind can handle. If what Tolkien was able to remember [not to mention have the courage to face in his waking world through writing] was something as horrific as being caught up in an easily fatal chase with terror-inspiring riders, it makes me wonder what sorts of unsurfaced dreams might have inspired other aspects of his work. I'd be interested to get a look into the man's dreams, given that the topic and its relation to what people do fascinates me.

07-04-2006, 09:39 AM	#2
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Here are some interesting sites describing the use of horses in WW1: Horses in WW1 The Forgotten Army It seems that, while cavalry were still considered the superior military units at the outset of the war, this very quickly changed with the onset of trench warfare, and that cavalry charges were rare after the charge at Mons in August 1914. Throughout the remainder of the war, horses were used mainly for transport. I doubt that they were commonly used on the Western Front for reconnaissance purposes, since trenches, barbed wire and craters would have rendered this difficult, although it's possible I suppose. I couldn't see any mention of that in the articles linked to above though. I did, however, find the following piece, which indicates that Australian troops used light horse brigades for reconnaissance purposes: THE 3RD LIGHT HORSE BRIGADE SCOUT GROUP WW1 __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

07-04-2006, 02:05 PM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Taht is a possibility that occurred much later especially since the horses of Eomer's Eored are greys . I think only Asfaloth the elf-horse and Shadowfax are white as is Gandalf's horse inthe Hobbit if I remember correctly. Also it stregthens the contrast between the black horses of the Nazgul. Thier darkness and Glorfindel's white light... which Frodo also will acquire ..according to Gandalf in the next chapter. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

07-05-2006, 06:30 AM	#7
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	I was thinking of intact ones. A bomb crater would be not something you could jump across - possibly scramble in and out of, but again not impossible for a really good hunter used to thick coverts as well as open fields. However .. it isn't clear that this was an actual event, I too think a dream is more likely. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

07-05-2006, 08:23 AM	#12
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	Perhaps what is 'fortunate' is that Tolkien escaped in his nightmare, leaving him a very jarring and memorable precident for Frodo's ride? If he had not escaped in dream, we might very well not have Frodo's ride across the ford. On a note that interests me, it is fascinating to learn that things J.R.R. wrote were based on recurring nightmares. littlemanpoet and I recently discussed dreams in brief and the idea arose that what you remember of your dreams is limited to that which your conscious mind can handle. If what Tolkien was able to remember [not to mention have the courage to face in his waking world through writing] was something as horrific as being caught up in an easily fatal chase with terror-inspiring riders, it makes me wonder what sorts of unsurfaced dreams might have inspired other aspects of his work. I'd be interested to get a look into the man's dreams, given that the topic and its relation to what people do fascinates me. __________________ peace

07-04-2006, 01:48 PM	#4
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I'm sure Tolkien was aware of the Grey=White thing. My own suspicion is that 'White' was used for its symbolic value. In the Mythology White is 'purer' than Grey (Gandalf/Saruman thing).

07-05-2006, 07:40 AM	#10
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	The Reverend John Waddington-Feather is an author - found a bunch of his books on Amazon. UK. I've also found an email address for him & have mailed him asking for more info. I'll let you know if I get a response.

07-05-2006, 08:16 AM	#11
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Who would this "schoolmaster son" be? Christopher is more commonly and correctly I would think referred to as an academic or scholar. Michael was a priest. Of what occupation is John Tolkien, son?