WWJ X: Hithlum Zydeco Blues; Hísilómë in Hísimë

[Roa_Aoife]

Until such time as villagers in general get the idea into their heads that their attempts to catch a wolf on Day 1 will be nothing but luck... I shall continue to rail against them. 'tis only tradition, 'tis only fact I speak, and the overweening optimism of those thinking to catch a wolf by deductions on Day 1 is grating.

You know, as the one who caught Boro-wolf on Day 1 using reasonable deductions, I find that statement mildly insulting. (Why must everyone attirbute my accomplishments to luck and not my own skill?)

Morm, that problem with your plan is that we have wolves in the mix. Even if we have two people watching one, we could have a wolf watching a wolf, and making the innocent look bad, or two wolves watching an innocent and making that innocent look bad, or one wolf watching an innocent and still managing to hide.... you get the point. We still can't trust anyone. At least not yet, when we don't know anything. (Ever the advantage of the wolves.)

Anf frankly, Form, if you think it ought to be obvious that Day 1's are useless, why bother stating it? Face facts- those who think they are useless will continue to think so. Those who think they aren't will continue to do so. The only thing statements like yours do is sidetrack us from the problem at hand.

Of course, that may just be your plan. You keep posting, but you aren't saying anything new or useful. Get over yourself and move on.

[Nogrod]

Just going to sleep but can't help commenting on this...

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Anf frankly, Form, if you think it ought to be obvious that Day 1's are useless, why bother stating it? Face facts- those who think they are useless will continue to think so. Those who think they aren't will continue to do so. The only thing statements like yours do is sidetrack us from the problem at hand.

I totally agree! But would still like to point on a problem not openly stated in Roa's answer.

If people think Day1's are useless, why not to skip them all? The only trouble is, that then Day2 will become a new Day1 etc. And if we skip Day2 then with similar reasons...

We need people to open the game and start actually going into the bussiness. One of the main reasons I despise people who a) mock Day1's as an excuse on not to do anything ,or b) basically take on the strategy of posting minimally with no substance, is that it creates an inbalance in the game. Those who really invest in the game = actually play, will be the ones in the lynching-line in the beginning of the game, and those who just hang around (with evil intentions or just being clever enough in that sense) can lay back easily in a game where being lazy is the norm.

The problem is. In a village (a camp) where everyone just hangs around, nothing happens. Hanging around requires something to hang around on! So in a sense all those "I hate Day1's" or "I'll post only once aDay some nonsense" -people are parasites, drinking the blood of those who actually play. And that is morally quite low...

Think of a village inhabitated with 15 Forms! Everyone would just exclaim how stupid saying anything is. How could they decide their votes on any Day? Their Day1 would become Day2, Day3 etc... And surely, they would have made sure, that their votes had been in random, because there is nothing to go for... understandably.

But where's the fun? Where's the excitement? Where's the struggle? Where's the game?

Where's the reason to play anyway?

[Roa_Aoife]

I strongly suggest we move on from arguments for/against Day 1. It will only cause unnecessary confusion and draw us away from our goal.

I have to go, as it's nearing midnight here. (I can't imagine what Nogrod was still doing up.) I'll be back on shortly after my alarm clock wakes me up, but I'll have to go several hours before the deadline.

Give me something to analyze when I get back, okay? (Whee! Analysis!)

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Roa

Morm, that problem with your plan is that we have wolves in the mix. Even if we have two people watching one, we could have a wolf watching a wolf, and making the innocent look bad, or two wolves watching an innocent and making that innocent look bad, or one wolf watching an innocent and still managing to hide.... you get the point. We still can't trust anyone. At least not yet, when we don't know anything. (Ever the advantage of the wolves.)

So what really is the difference between this and the normal other than the wolves are forced to focus on few and when we detect they are deliberately making people look bad they are exposed to a seer dream or a village lynching? Afraid?

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by mormegil

So what really is the difference between this and the normal other than the wolves are forced to focus on few and when we detect they are deliberately making people look bad they are exposed to a seer dream or a village lynching? Afraid?

In this instance the wolves are better able to either redirect us, or hide. I would also like to point out that if we catch a wolf, following your plan would inhibit our ability to review his/her interactions to find the others. Not only that, but it prevents the villagers (campers) from looking in all directions, thus putting blinders on them and forcing to only look in a specified direction. One person may pick up what all others would miss.

Who is making the assignments? You? How do we know you're not wolf, and that you won't keep you or one of your fellows covered like that? Also, as people get lynched, different villagers will be left unguarded, and so slip under the radar, which is exactly what you say you mean to prevent with this plan in the first place. It may have looked good at first, but there are too many flaws in it to work right.

Afraid? I'm afraid of the limits your idea would place on our ability to think for ourselves.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Afraid? I'm afraid of the limits your idea would place on our ability to think for ourselves.

Most of the great Morm-plans of Werewolf have had a tendency to do that...

Seriously, it's really a great comfort to see Morm being his normal, grand scheming self... it means he's perfectly normal, albeit a bit early. This sort of behaviour doesn't usually set in until Day 3ish...

Morm's plan, however, changes little about the real village dynamics.

The Wolves are still intent on deceiving everybody, and everybody is still intent on finding them. The Innocents are still going to bark up entirely the wrong trees, and the Wolves are still going to get caught by the most absurd things.

It might even benefit the wolves to follow Morm's plan. Instead of having to deceive a whole village, each wolf only really has to deceive two people- a potentially much easier task.

Really, I don't see much of a benefit to the village... In fact, the only REAL difference that I'm seeing is that it allows Morm to play organizer. While the chances of Morm being Wolvish are nearly nil in my opinion... the possibility is enough to make me shy away from his grand scheme...

Okay, enough replies now... Off to the other forums, and then to bed. Back before the deadline, I hope.

Unless someone makes a reply in the next little bit, of course.

[Mithalwen]

Hello...... time for token in character post "Here kitty, kitty, kitty..."

Too hot, too sleepy and too soon to get into analysis and random observations are more my thing so...

Form giving his spiel re day ones seems a little too formulaic... he did it last time we played but just seems maybe a bit contrived. He was innocent then btu know I wonder if he is trying to set up one of those "just x being x" type assumptions. Not saying a huge suspicion .. just something to look at...

As Roa, and Nogrod have pointed out ..day ones can be very productive. The number of Fenris wolves bear that out. Given the unusual day 1 scenario.... with wolves pming privately between themselves as they speak openly to us all and a seer getting their dream.. there may be more stuff to watch out for than usual.

Going to have another read.. then perhaps another post before a few hours of arpeggios and a longer spell online with more to look at....

[Mithalwen]

V quick cos I have 3 inutes left on the library pc...


dun likd Morms plan ... if I get another time slot I will expalin...
Glirdan - I don't know if wolves like music ..their singing leaves a lot to be desired. But cats love music just ask Signor Rossini!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Think of a village inhabitated with 15 Forms! Everyone would just exclaim how stupid saying anything is. How could they decide their votes on any Day? Their Day1 would become Day2, Day3 etc... And surely, they would have made sure, that their votes had been in random, because there is nothing to go for... understandably.

No, it wouldn't...

All the Forms would have to vote on Day 1- and being Forms, they would do that.

And then there would be a voting record. And then a Night Kill.

And then things would get interesting.

There is no such thing as a truly, 100% random vote. It simply does not exist, short of draws for names- and I've rarely, if ever, seen that happen.

No, all the "random" votes that float around have SOME reasoning... Not deduction based so much as instinct based, a vote based on a dislike or a gut feeling. Or, in the case of wolves, a very careful crafted vote to make them look innocent, or to make them look like helpful innocents, or to set up a well-crafted, low-key disagreement between themselves and another wolf.

The difficulty is that the Wolvish rationale and the Ordo rationale cannot, typically, be differentiated on Day 1 itself. It is only with the passage of time and the possession of a Kill record that these things come to bear importance.

But where's the fun? Where's the excitement? Where's the struggle? Where's the game?

Where's the reason to play anyway?

In two words: Day 2.