Dueling Wizards Werewolf Suggestion Thread - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Roa_Aoife · 06-30-2006, 12:03 PM

My point was that you had the option to direct them at will if you so chose. That was not the strategy you went with most of the time (and in part that may have to do with your in ability to communicate at night) but you could have. I'm just saying that we risk eliminating the Wizards' ability to strategize of we cement who can say what and when. I could have given my wolves more autonomy, but I didn't. I used them like tools to further my plans, and hey, it worked. As the saying goes, if something ain't broke....

The basic rules of communication for both sides is that it must happen through the sub-mod, and the choices must be in to the sub-mod to before deadline. If we set down much more than this, we squash creativity. Let the EW and GW run their teams as they see fit. They know what's going on better than anyone else. Hence the name of the game.

Though this brings up another issue- the kill choice must be in two hours before the start of the day. Does communication stop at this point as well, or can the EW and wolves continue discussion up until the day begins? And if a message is sent to the sub mod before the start of the day, but the sub mod doesn't get it untill after the start of the day, do they still send it? And is the Good team held to the same rules?

EDIT: Forgot this part- Keeping my wolves in the dark for the most part was the safest strategy. After I started filling morm in on information, like the identities of two other wolves, and some of my plans, like killing Valier, I began to get paranoid that he would get srcyed. I moved him to emergency kill because the info he had could have devestated my team. Boromir was informed that in the event of Morm's turning, he was to be killed immediately, no and's if's or but's. This was most prudent, because sometimes I wouldn't find out what was going on with my wolves or my picks until it was Day. Boromir can tell you that I started getting very pushy for info at the end, and in every case I would demant to know if I had my pick, and if I still had all of my wolves after the GW's scry. In this case, it was the good of the team that the EW had the power to do that.

**The Saucepan Man** · 06-30-2006, 05:44 PM

I have to say that, while sympathising with the experiences of Nogrod and Jenny, I rather agree with Roa. The whole point of Duelling Wizards is that the Wizards are, ultimately, calling the shots. It was inevitable that the Wolves would have much less discretion than in a normal game and, I believe, some of us pointed this out beforehand. By agreeing to play, you effectively subscribe to this in the event that you are turned into a Wolf.

With all the Werewolf games going on, it's not like there is no opportunity to play a standard Wolf role elsewhere. Being a Wolf in Duelling Wizards, while the EW is still alive, means playing a different kind of game. While I agree that there is scope for passing more information, in terms of rationale for kill nominations etc, between the Wolves and the EW, the EW should always have the ultimate say, for the reasons that Roa has outlined.

And, if you didn't like being a Wolf with restricted choices, think what it was like being an innocent killed on Night 2! At least you had a bit of a run out. I would have relished the opportunity, had either Wizard chosen me (as I rather hoped they might).

littlemanpoet · 06-30-2006, 08:58 PM

This was a good discussion. It was helpful to hear out both sides. I think Roa & SPM have a strong case. I think I'll be leaving it up to the EW and GW how they want to run their teams. I have to hand it to Morm for having taken the proverbial bull by the horns; I'm sure it made Roa's game much more interesting than having all relatively passive werewolves; Morm had an idea and was allowed to run with it because the EW saw its merits.

Naria · 01-22-2008, 11:39 PM

Since there is interest in bringing this game back and some very good ideas in this thread, I thought it best to give it a bumpity!

Roa_Aoife · 01-23-2008, 06:14 PM

I think we should go with LMP's method of choosing the wizards- they PM the Mod with their desire to be a wizard (either Good or Evil) and from that list a random choice is made. That way, someone who doesn't feel they can put in the time to be a wizard, or doesn't want the responsibility, or whatever, can opt not to.

Macalaure · 01-24-2008, 08:35 AM

Alright, alright...

I'm not sure I really understand how this works exactly. I hope someone can help me.

The rules for the werewolves to pick a kill appear a bit too complicated for my little brain...

1. Each werewolf sends a candidate to the evil sub-mod.
2. If a majority is already achieved, then that is the night's kill, if not, then the ESM sends each werewolf the list of candidates back.
3. The werewolves may change their pick, but only from one of the candidates.
4. If still no majority is achieved, then the Evil Wizard is handed the list of candidates and may choose.
5. If the werewolves happen to like to kill one of their own, or their wizard, then the EW may overrule their choice by a free choice of his own.

Did I understand that correctly? And did that really work in the past game, even with all the different time zones (of sub mod, wizard, and many wolves)?

From the outside, this game appears to be somewhat unbalanced in favour of the Evil Team. The EW can create a new werewolf every night (unless a gifted is picked), but can only lose more than one, and therefore have his team decrease in number, if both a wolf is lynched and the GW saves one from lycanthropy. At the same time, it takes the Good Wizard three nights to have his whole set of gifteds arranged, and he can never have more than that.

Roa_Aoife · 01-24-2008, 07:44 PM

You're sort of right. The EW, as well as the GW, can override the decisions of the wolves or gifted at any time. This is actually necessary, because you don't wanter a hunter hunting a seer, etc, or wolves killing another wolf. And sometimes the Wizards just know more.

The wolves can provide any ammount of reasoning they like to the EW, or none at all, with only a name. Depends on the wolf. Likewise the seer can reason who to dream, and the hunter whom to hunt, and the protector whom to protect. It's all ultimately the Wizard's decision how much autonomy they give their team. This allows for varying strategies and creative plays.

As for the unbalance- keep in mind that if the EW picks someone who is gifted to turn, the gifted merely becomes innocent, and the EW gains almost nothing, not even information. If the GW tries to turn a wolf, the wolf becomes innocent and thus switches teams, and if the wolf knows anything, s/he can tell the entire village. There's also the logical hunter- only makes a kill if they target a wolf.

I do agree that the good team should start with three gifted, rather than one, though.

Also, multiple kills for four (perhaps five?) or more wolves just helps keep the game from dragging on too long.

06-30-2006, 12:03 PM	#1
Roa_Aoife Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it. Posts: 1,696	My point was that you had the option to direct them at will if you so chose. That was not the strategy you went with most of the time (and in part that may have to do with your in ability to communicate at night) but you could have. I'm just saying that we risk eliminating the Wizards' ability to strategize of we cement who can say what and when. I could have given my wolves more autonomy, but I didn't. I used them like tools to further my plans, and hey, it worked. As the saying goes, if something ain't broke.... The basic rules of communication for both sides is that it must happen through the sub-mod, and the choices must be in to the sub-mod to before deadline. If we set down much more than this, we squash creativity. Let the EW and GW run their teams as they see fit. They know what's going on better than anyone else. Hence the name of the game. Though this brings up another issue- the kill choice must be in two hours before the start of the day. Does communication stop at this point as well, or can the EW and wolves continue discussion up until the day begins? And if a message is sent to the sub mod before the start of the day, but the sub mod doesn't get it untill after the start of the day, do they still send it? And is the Good team held to the same rules? EDIT: Forgot this part- Keeping my wolves in the dark for the most part was the safest strategy. After I started filling morm in on information, like the identities of two other wolves, and some of my plans, like killing Valier, I began to get paranoid that he would get srcyed. I moved him to emergency kill because the info he had could have devestated my team. Boromir was informed that in the event of Morm's turning, he was to be killed immediately, no and's if's or but's. This was most prudent, because sometimes I wouldn't find out what was going on with my wolves or my picks until it was Day. Boromir can tell you that I started getting very pushy for info at the end, and in every case I would demant to know if I had my pick, and if I still had all of my wolves after the GW's scry. In this case, it was the good of the team that the EW had the power to do that. __________________ We can't all be Roas* when it comes to analysing...* -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen Last edited by Roa_Aoife; 06-30-2006 at 12:12 PM.

06-30-2006, 05:44 PM	#2
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I have to say that, while sympathising with the experiences of Nogrod and Jenny, I rather agree with Roa. The whole point of Duelling Wizards is that the Wizards are, ultimately, calling the shots. It was inevitable that the Wolves would have much less discretion than in a normal game and, I believe, some of us pointed this out beforehand. By agreeing to play, you effectively subscribe to this in the event that you are turned into a Wolf. With all the Werewolf games going on, it's not like there is no opportunity to play a standard Wolf role elsewhere. Being a Wolf in Duelling Wizards, while the EW is still alive, means playing a different kind of game. While I agree that there is scope for passing more information, in terms of rationale for kill nominations etc, between the Wolves and the EW, the EW should always have the ultimate say, for the reasons that Roa has outlined. And, if you didn't like being a Wolf with restricted choices, think what it was like being an innocent killed on Night 2! At least you had a bit of a run out. I would have relished the opportunity, had either Wizard chosen me (as I rather hoped they might). __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

01-23-2008, 06:14 PM	#5
Roa_Aoife Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it. Posts: 1,696	I think we should go with LMP's method of choosing the wizards- they PM the Mod with their desire to be a wizard (either Good or Evil) and from that list a random choice is made. That way, someone who doesn't feel they can put in the time to be a wizard, or doesn't want the responsibility, or whatever, can opt not to. __________________ We can't all be Roas* when it comes to analysing...* -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen

01-24-2008, 07:44 PM	#7
Roa_Aoife Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it. Posts: 1,696	You're sort of right. The EW, as well as the GW, can override the decisions of the wolves or gifted at any time. This is actually necessary, because you don't wanter a hunter hunting a seer, etc, or wolves killing another wolf. And sometimes the Wizards just know more. The wolves can provide any ammount of reasoning they like to the EW, or none at all, with only a name. Depends on the wolf. Likewise the seer can reason who to dream, and the hunter whom to hunt, and the protector whom to protect. It's all ultimately the Wizard's decision how much autonomy they give their team. This allows for varying strategies and creative plays. As for the unbalance- keep in mind that if the EW picks someone who is gifted to turn, the gifted merely becomes innocent, and the EW gains almost nothing, not even information. If the GW tries to turn a wolf, the wolf becomes innocent and thus switches teams, and if the wolf knows anything, s/he can tell the entire village. There's also the logical hunter- only makes a kill if they target a wolf. I do agree that the good team should start with three gifted, rather than one, though. Also, multiple kills for four (perhaps five?) or more wolves just helps keep the game from dragging on too long. __________________ We can't all be Roas* when it comes to analysing...* -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen

06-30-2006, 08:58 PM	#3
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	This was a good discussion. It was helpful to hear out both sides. I think Roa & SPM have a strong case. I think I'll be leaving it up to the EW and GW how they want to run their teams. I have to hand it to Morm for having taken the proverbial bull by the horns; I'm sure it made Roa's game much more interesting than having all relatively passive werewolves; Morm had an idea and was allowed to run with it because the EW saw its merits.

01-22-2008, 11:39 PM	#4
Naria Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 500	Since there is interest in bringing this game back and some very good ideas in this thread, I thought it best to give it a bumpity!

01-24-2008, 08:35 AM	#6
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	Alright, alright... I'm not sure I really understand how this works exactly. I hope someone can help me. The rules for the werewolves to pick a kill appear a bit too complicated for my little brain... 1. Each werewolf sends a candidate to the evil sub-mod. 2. If a majority is already achieved, then that is the night's kill, if not, then the ESM sends each werewolf the list of candidates back. 3. The werewolves may change their pick, but only from one of the candidates. 4. If still no majority is achieved, then the Evil Wizard is handed the list of candidates and may choose. 5. If the werewolves happen to like to kill one of their own, or their wizard, then the EW may overrule their choice by a free choice of his own. Did I understand that correctly? And did that really work in the past game, even with all the different time zones (of sub mod, wizard, and many wolves)? From the outside, this game appears to be somewhat unbalanced in favour of the Evil Team. The EW can create a new werewolf every night (unless a gifted is picked), but can only lose more than one, and therefore have his team decrease in number, if both a wolf is lynched and the GW saves one from lycanthropy. At the same time, it takes the Good Wizard three nights to have his whole set of gifteds arranged, and he can never have more than that.