Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Second

[Raynor]

I also think that we are missapplying our standards on what is a rational soul and what is an animal. Many kelvar behave inteligently, to a degree that in unparalled in our world; and they also speak . Therefore, (regardless of aspect) though we may qualify some beings as having a fea, based on speech and behaviour, the Men/Elves would probably require more qualifiers.

[Kuruharan]

Many kelvar behave inteligently, to a degree that in unparalled in our world; and they also speak

But they don't make. I can't think of any instance where even one that could speak made anything.

[HerenIstarion]

Several points:

1. Orks do 'build tools'
2. I don't remember reading about time period of hunting, i.e. - how long did elves hunt petty-dwarves? It may have been couple of occassions, not more, which is excusable (see above about night)
3. Mim was not carrying all of axes and weapons he had on him when he was caught. Couple of occassions I refer to in Clause 2 may have happaned by accident, when both parties (lone elf and party of petty dwarves) were out on other business than war. Imagine company of petty dwarves on root-gathering expedition seeing an elf taking a stroll. They kill him with handy weapons, i.e. selfsame 'roots' or stones.
4. Read clause 1

[Kuruharan]

Orks do 'build tools'

Orcs are not animals. No matter what version of orcish existence you happen to subscribe to, some of them at least have something inside them (and I'm just speaking generically and not getting into all the classifications).

how long did elves hunt petty-dwarves?

No definitive answer.

Couple of occassions I refer to in Clause 2 may have happaned by accident, when both parties (lone elf and party of petty dwarves) were out on other business than war. Imagine company of petty dwarves on root-gathering expedition seeing an elf taking a stroll. They kill him with handy weapons, i.e. selfsame 'roots' or stones.

Yes, but the way the incident are phrased gives the impression of malice aforethought on the part of the Petty-Dwarves.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Orcs are not animals. No matter what version of orcish existence you happen to subscribe to, some of them at least have something inside them (and I'm just speaking generically and not getting into all the classifications).

...

Yes, but the way the incident are phrased gives the impression of malice aforethought on the part of the Petty-Dwarves.

Orkish classification re - I subscribe to all of them together. But tools made by non-animal-orks (if these only are capable of making them) are successfully used by animal-ones. Hence it may be concluded that living being with a tool attacking one does not necessarily need to be anything but 'twisted' kelvar.

Malice-aforethought re - I also do subscribe to 'collective authorship' and 'later recorded' character of elvish legends. It is not hard to imagine (all this thread is based on impressions and imaginations, ain't it?) [half realised] sense of guilt on the part of elvish recorders for this obviously big mistake, exaggerating (not necessarily consciously so) just a tiny bit elements of ambush 'long planned', when 'ambush' in question might have been 'I saw you half a minute before you saw me, so I have an advantage' type of tactics. Besides, when lone is attacked by many, even if it was an accident, from the lone's point of view it would be 'malice aforethought'

But main stress is on longevity of the hunting period. Since it is not defined whatsoever, and you yourself lean heavily on 'impressions' in your reasoning, let me lean on my own impression that petty-dwarf hunting could not have possibly occurred more than couple of times at all. Even couple of times is enough to get dwarves offended (touchy folk, these), and no more is required to grasp that hunted are not merely twisted animals.

PS. And about chimps - it seems they are capable of building tools, after all

[Kuruharan]

Hence it may be concluded that living being with a tool attacking one does not necessarily need to be anything but 'twisted' kelvar.

Yes, but this reasoning is more complicated than just thinking, “Hey, these creatures might be sentient” (partially because it requires a realization of sentience before you can move to this next step).

Besides, when lone is attacked by many, even if it was an accident, from the lone's point of view it would be 'malice aforethought'

I think too much is made of this “lone” business. There are a couple of points here. A) I don’t think the Petty-Dwarves would have attacked Elves in the first place unless they were in a position of great superiority (I think we can probably all agree on that) B) On the other hand, if the Elf was really alone or even if there were a few of them, there would not likely be any survivors to say who did it. There would not be any reason to think it was Petty-Dwarves or anybody else (unless they found footprints, which would look suspiciously like smaller versions of their own feet…hmmm…) Having survivors implies a larger group of Elves, which requires a larger group of Petty-Dwarves, which requires greater organization on the part of the Petty-Dwarves. This should have been telling to the Elves.

petty-dwarf hunting could not have possibly occurred more than couple of times at all.

That was pretty much my impression.

And about chimps - it seems they are capable of building tools, after all

Didn’t I say that?

[Raynor]

I don’t think the Petty-Dwarves would have attacked Elves in the first place unless they were in a position of great superiority (I think we can probably all agree on that). On the other hand, if the Elf was really alone or even if there were a few of them, there would not likely be any survivors to say who did it

The petty dwarves seem pretty savage so as to act based on basic fight/flight instincts - esspecially since they didn't know the might of the first elves. I would say they clearly underestimated the elves' might and I think there were very few (if any!) casualties among the eldar. (Moreover, the elves have been dealing with Melkor's minions ever since they were born.)

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Yes, but this reasoning is more complicated than just thinking, “Hey, these creatures might be sentient

Not much complicated, if we take into account that just earlier elves have been absolutely sure they are the only incarnates.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Having survivors implies a larger group of Elves

Not necessarily. As the issue of elves eating petty-dwarves must have been merely a joke on your part, I don’t expect you believe petty-dwarves were eating slain elves as well? Hypothetical ‘lone elf’ might have been sorely wounded, but knowing how hardy elves are, one might have lived to tell the tale.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Didn’t I say that?

Nope. Your words, exact:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

notice I said "build" and not "use" to prevent somebody tossing the chimpanzees at me

I’ve tossed at you tool-building chimp, not tool-using one

But, as a whole, one way or another we are bound to speculate – no data to build upon. Arguments I’ve presented you with were no intended to rule out even the possibility of things as you reason them, I’ve just tried to illustrate that quite different development of events might have taken place as well. Plausibility is in the eye of the beholder here. I tend to hold that killing of petty-dwarves was just regrettable accident. Arguments to my rescue seem plausible to me. I’m content. Hence:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This should have been telling to the Elves

Seems tiny bit pointless. We do not even know what was the ‘telling’ which finally stopped the hunting. It might have been ‘greater organization’ as you describe it, it might have been fear to offend 'real' dwarves more, it might have been lone elf survivor realizing (after not being eaten) that these must have been incarnates, if they haven’t eaten him raw, and just dined nearby on soup made of roots, and haven’t made a soup out of him either. (Or even maybe ‘lone elf’ saw petty-dwarves pickling ‘lone elf #2’ in the pot and than realization dawned on him )

If you imply that elves should be blamed for the fact itself – well, probably they should. On the other hand, they’ve stopped of their own accord, and [as I believe] quite soon – feat quite commendable.

That was pretty much my impression

m-m-m... than what are we arguing about?