WWJ IX: Psychotic Penguins: The Crossing of Helcaraxë - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Valier · 06-09-2006, 04:22 PM

I agree I think you should tell us Lalaith who the Ordo is unless they are gifted. that will clear up at least something. It totally sucks that we have virtually lost two of our gifteds on the first day, but at least we got a WP in there. If we know another innocent it may help in narrowing this down.

Roa_Aoife · 06-09-2006, 04:25 PM

Actually, if the person is the hunter, you should definitely tell us who they are but not tell us that they are the hunter. The hunter is no good unless they get killed. Otherwise, I don't think it will hurt the village to have a known innocent.

the phantom · 06-09-2006, 04:26 PM

Tell us, Lalaith.

Sure, that guarantees the WPs will kill him/her, but at least the village will have one person tomorrow that has an agenda they can trust, and can rule out one person when rounding up suspects.

Kitanna died to give you another dream. You might as well tell it. We'll look like idiots if, three days down the road, we lynch someone and after the game we learn that the person was a proven innocent.

the phantom · 06-09-2006, 04:39 PM

Just so everyone knows, it was primarily this post that made me suspect Boro of being a WP. There was just something about the way he listed his suspects and the way he addressed their guilt and innocence that set off an alarm. When I read posts, I try to look past their actual words and get a feel for what they're really saying, or where they are trying to lead me.

I didn't really have time to do that yesterday, but when I skimmed that post by Boro, it was like I didn't even have to try and interpret it. I'm guessing it's because he and I are similar in some ways and also because the two of us have been Wolves together in past villages. His post said to me "I'm a WP and I'm trying to hide my fellow WPs on my lists, trying to put some seeds of accusations in the minds of others without coming out and doing it, trying to sound generally positive about people so as to not attract a backlash, and definitely trying to show how truly clueless I am as to the identity of the WPs."

It reminded me of my thoughts when I've been a wolf.

I picked up on that sort of mood a bit from Ang too which is why I listed him with Boro as a suspect near the end of yesterday.

Right now I'm trying to analyze the voting order. I'm thinking I'll have time to do that and post some thoughts a bit later.

Any theories about the Boro post I linked to, and where on his lists he put his fellow WPs?

Macalaure · 06-09-2006, 04:40 PM

Finally some time to really read through everything that has been posted yesterday. I think I like nights, if only there wasn't this, well, bloodshed at the end of it. *shudders*
Poor Kitanna. I regret ever having voted for her. She wouldn't have revealed herself if I didn't.

One thing that troubled me when I reread, was that known villain Boromir88 was very quick at calling me innocent, for no real reason. Now I realized that, too, Ang, Diamond, phantom and Firefoot thought me innocent, all for little or no reasons (I'm quite curious about what tp might bring up today). Interestingly, except Firefoot each of them is on the top half of my suspicion list. On the other hand, spawn and Valier, who are in the lower half, raised more or less reasonable concerns about me.

Let's have a word about Anguirel.
He defended the vicious Boro against Roa. Maybe, like admittedly myself, he was just fond of Boro's innocence and found, again like me (though I didn't write about it), Roa's points to be weak. Then came Post 84. So Boro didn't need to defend himself, yet Ang does so for several posts? Irony? A slip? Maybe...

But later he says he doesn't like Lalaith to be lynched, at a time, when Boro was still/already in danger.

Then he voted for Kitanna. But then, of course, I did, too.

I hate people who are suspicious and unsuspicious at the same time. It makes me suspicious about them.

Now, this was supposed to be followed by an elaborate analysis on why I don't believe Kitanna to be the true ranger. So much for that. I still don't understand why she revealed herself, she wasn't pressed so severely. She could be alive now and still saved Lalaith.

Lalaith, whether you reveal the innocent or not, I don't think we will rally around him/her. Could be the cobbler, after all.
I agree on Roa. Don't tell us whether s/he's the hunter. That will give the penguins something to chew on and the innocent a chance not to be killed this night.

Diamond18 · 06-09-2006, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macalaure

One thing that troubled me when I reread, was that known villain Boromir88 was very quick at calling me innocent, for no real reason. Now I realized that, too, Ang, Diamond, phantom and Firefoot thought me innocent, all for little or no reasons (I'm quite curious about what tp might bring up today).

Hmm, well, I can't speak for others, but you just seemed a bit too guileless and overt in all your opinions/thoughts and that's why you felt innocent to me. Problem is, I felt more or less the same way about Boromir. So, if it makes you feel better, I am now paranoid about you.

But seriously, it is quite easy for a newbie to be very quiet and sail along for a bit on the "newbie" card. People will chalk it up to the person being cautious or overwhelmed, and magnaimously "give them a chance" for at least a few days. So, if a newbie is a wolf, their compatriots may council them to take advantage of this and lay low no matter how competent or comfortable they may actually feel. You didn't do that, hence, I didn't see much contrivance in your posts. You seemed to be operating on your own.

All of which explains my thinking yesterDay. Boro's guilt has shaken my confidence in my gut feelings from yesterDay. The one thing I did get right was Kitanna, though. I knew she wasn't being careful and quiet enough to be her usual evil self, but then, I have experience with Kitanna. Still, I'd like to think that if I'd been thinking clearer I would have seen through Boro. *grumble grumble*

Quote:

Lalaith, whether you reveal the innocent or not, I don't think we will rally around him/her. Could be the cobbler, after all.

No, s/he couldn't. Says so in the roolz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roolz

In this game, the cobbler will be seen as the cobbler by the seer when dreamed of, but counted as an ordo in the tallies.

edit, X-posted with tp and Lal

Lalaith · 06-09-2006, 05:16 PM

For Diamond, with reference to this and the previous WW game...(look under Agrajag)

(It came to mind when I said "oh no not again" yesterday. It was what the petunias said as they fell through space...)

Diamond18 · 06-09-2006, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalaith

For Diamond, with reference to this and the previous WW game...(look under Agrajag)

(It came to mind when I said "oh no not again" yesterday. It was what the petunias said as they fell through space...)

Oh dear, yes, now I do remember. Happily, though, I haven't actually suceeded in killing you either time. Does it mean anything that I wouldn't have voted for you that last day, had I actually showed up in time to vote?

Roa_Aoife · 06-09-2006, 05:27 PM

This is a quick summary of Boromir's reactions and other's reactions to him. I've noted all our "knowns" and listed the overlapping behavior. If I've made a mistake in someone's view on the matter, I apologize (this was done quickly). Please feel free to correct it as needed.

NOTE: This is as things were previous to Lal's reveal (except for the phantom, as he crossposted his suspicion with the reveal and all the chaos that ensued)

People Boromir Suspected

Lal
Roa
Kitanna
Ang

It should be noted that two of the above are known innocents

People Boromir though innocent

Valier
Mac
Jenny
Spawn
Eonwe

People Boromir wasn't sure about

phantom
Firefoot
Naria
Encaitare
Diamond

Note: one of the above is a known innocent

People who suspected Boromir

Lal
Roa
Phantom

Note: Two of the above are known innocents

People who thought Boromir innocent

Valier
Ang
Jenny
Diamond
Mac

People who didn't know either way

Eonwe
Naria
Kitanna
Spawn
Firefoot
Enca

Note: one of the above is known innocent

Overlaps

Mutually suspicious

Lal
Roa

Note: One of the above is known innocent

Mutually Trusting

Valier
Jenny
Mac

Mutually Ignored/ Unsure

Firefoot
Naria
Eonwe
Enca

the phantom · 06-09-2006, 06:05 PM

Quote:

I dreamt of you last night

Well, that's fine and all- I often dream of you too, my lovely little Lalaith, but I don't go telling everyone.

Roa- nice list. Thanks for doing that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the votes fell like this-

(PI=Proven Innocent, WP=Werepenguin)

Ang for Eonwe---------- Eonwe-1
Enca for Lal (PI)-------- Lal (PI)-1, Eonwe-1
Jenn for tp (PI)--------- Lal (PI)-1, tp (PI)-1, Eonwe-1
Spawn for Kit (PI)------ Lal (PI)-1, Kit (PI)-1, tp (PI)-1, Eonwe-1
Firefoot for Lal (PI)----- Lal (PI)-2, Kit (PI)-1, tp (PI)-1, Eonwe-1
Lal (PI) for Boro (WP)--- Lal (PI)-2, Kit (PI)-1, tp (PI)-1, Boro (WP)-1, Eonwe-1
Ang for Kit (PI) (RETRACT Eonwe)--- Lal (PI)-2, Kit (PI)-2, tp (PI)-1, Boro (WP)-1
Jenn for Roa (RETRACT tp)--- Lal (PI)-2, Kit (PI)-2, Boro (WP)-1, Roa-1
Boro (WP) for Lal (PI)--- Lal (PI)-3, Kit (PI)-2, Boro (WP)-1, Roa-1
Roa for Boro (WP)------- Lal (PI)-3, Kit (PI)-2, Boro (WP)-2, Roa-1
Di for Lal (PI)------------ Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-2, Boro (WP)-2, Roa-1
Kit (PI) for Ang---------- Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-2, Boro (WP)-2, Roa-1, Ang-1
Mac for Kit (PI)---------- Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-3, Boro (WP)-2, Roa-1, Ang-1
Val for Ang--------------- Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-3, Boro (WP)-2, Ang-2, Roa-1
Val for Boro (WP) (RETRACT Ang)--- Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-3, Boro (WP)-3, Ang-1, Roa-1
Naria for Lal (PI)-------- Lal (PI)-5, Kit (PI)-3, Boro (WP)-3, Ang-1, Roa-1
Mac for Boro (WP) (RETRACT Kit)--- Lal (PI)-5, Boro (WP)-4, Kit (PI)-2, Ang-1, Roa-1
Naria for Boro (WP) (RETRACT Lal)--- Boro (WP)-5, Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-2, Ang-1, Roa-1
tp (PI) for Boro (WP)--- Boro (WP)-6, Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-2, Ang-1, Roa-1
Kit (PI) for Boro (WP)--- Boro (WP)-7, Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-2, Ang-1, Roa-1

I'll make some detailed comments on the voting later. For right now, I'll just say that from the voting alone, Valier looks suspicious. Anguirel, Diamond, and Mac also make votes that would be the logical vote for a WP to make at the time it was cast. Firefoot's too, though a bit less so.

Lalaith · 06-09-2006, 05:33 PM

Oh, and one other thing, before I go:
Mac, you say that Kitanna didn't have to reveal herself. Well, I can see why she did. Things were getting very fraught, right up at deadline, and we were considering falling back on lynching her if people didn't come forward to lynch/retract on Boro. I wonder if at least one of the people around at the time was a WP, biding their time to see which way the votes were going. It was looking pretty good for the WPs at one point, both the front runners (ie Kit and I) in the voting being innocents.
Any thoughts, elves?

Naria · 06-09-2006, 05:42 PM

Well this looks awfully grim for us. Yeah we caught a wp, but at the seer's and ranger's expense. And now one of the two(kitanna) is dead toDay. Not good at all. Btw can anyone answer one question that has been confusing me since it happened. Why did Kitanna feel the need to reveal herself? Hmmmm....maybe I'll find the answer myself when I go back and reread everything. I'll be back after I'm done.

Roa_Aoife · 06-09-2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Why did Kitanna feel the need to reveal herself? Hmmmm....maybe I'll find the answer myself when I go back and reread everything. I'll be back after I'm done.

Well, it started with Ang, previous to Lal's reveal, who decided to try to lynch Kitanna to save both Boromir and Lal. Mac joined it, though he'll have to speak for his own reasons. After Lal's reveal, we were concerned, since Lal was leading the votes and there wa so little time left, that we would lynch our seer. At that point, Kitanna was second in votes, and she said that if enough people didn't show up to vote Boromir, she would change to vote for herself. Later on, Lal and I agreed with this sentiment, and stated that if no one had voted for Boromir by a few minutes till, we would change our votes to Kitanna as well, to save our seer. Then Kitanna pointed out the fatal flaw in all of this by revealing herself. I don't know what she was thinking when she offered to vote for herself in Lal's place, but perhaps she wasn't expecting it to get to that point. I guess as time drew closer, she realized that it might, and decided that she needed to reveal to protect both herself and Lal.

06-09-2006, 04:22 PM	#1
Valier Twisted Taleswapper Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: somewhere between sanity and insanity Posts: 1,706	I agree I think you should tell us Lalaith who the Ordo is unless they are gifted. that will clear up at least something. It totally sucks that we have virtually lost two of our gifteds on the first day, but at least we got a WP in there. If we know another innocent it may help in narrowing this down. __________________ grand return?........

06-09-2006, 04:25 PM	#2
Roa_Aoife Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it. Posts: 1,696	Actually, if the person is the hunter, you should definitely tell us who they are but not tell us that they are the hunter. The hunter is no good unless they get killed. Otherwise, I don't think it will hurt the village to have a known innocent. __________________ We can't all be Roas* when it comes to analysing...* -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen

06-09-2006, 04:26 PM	#3
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Tell us, Lalaith. Sure, that guarantees the WPs will kill him/her, but at least the village will have one person tomorrow that has an agenda they can trust, and can rule out one person when rounding up suspects. Kitanna died to give you another dream. You might as well tell it. We'll look like idiots if, three days down the road, we lynch someone and after the game we learn that the person was a proven innocent. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

06-09-2006, 04:39 PM	#4
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Just so everyone knows, it was primarily this post that made me suspect Boro of being a WP. There was just something about the way he listed his suspects and the way he addressed their guilt and innocence that set off an alarm. When I read posts, I try to look past their actual words and get a feel for what they're really saying, or where they are trying to lead me. I didn't really have time to do that yesterday, but when I skimmed that post by Boro, it was like I didn't even have to try and interpret it. I'm guessing it's because he and I are similar in some ways and also because the two of us have been Wolves together in past villages. His post said to me "I'm a WP and I'm trying to hide my fellow WPs on my lists, trying to put some seeds of accusations in the minds of others without coming out and doing it, trying to sound generally positive about people so as to not attract a backlash, and definitely trying to show how truly clueless I am as to the identity of the WPs." It reminded me of my thoughts when I've been a wolf. I picked up on that sort of mood a bit from Ang too which is why I listed him with Boro as a suspect near the end of yesterday. Right now I'm trying to analyze the voting order. I'm thinking I'll have time to do that and post some thoughts a bit later. Any theories about the Boro post I linked to, and where on his lists he put his fellow WPs? __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

06-09-2006, 04:40 PM	#5
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	Finally some time to really read through everything that has been posted yesterday. I think I like nights, if only there wasn't this, well, bloodshed at the end of it. shudders Poor Kitanna. I regret ever having voted for her. She wouldn't have revealed herself if I didn't. One thing that troubled me when I reread, was that known villain Boromir88 was very quick at calling me innocent, for no real reason. Now I realized that, too, Ang, Diamond, phantom and Firefoot thought me innocent, all for little or no reasons (I'm quite curious about what tp might bring up today). Interestingly, except Firefoot each of them is on the top half of my suspicion list. On the other hand, spawn and Valier, who are in the lower half, raised more or less reasonable concerns about me. Let's have a word about Anguirel. He defended the vicious Boro against Roa. Maybe, like admittedly myself, he was just fond of Boro's innocence and found, again like me (though I didn't write about it), Roa's points to be weak. Then came Post 84. So Boro didn't need to defend himself, yet Ang does so for several posts? Irony? A slip? Maybe... But later he says he doesn't like Lalaith to be lynched, at a time, when Boro was still/already in danger. Then he voted for Kitanna. But then, of course, I did, too. I hate people who are suspicious and unsuspicious at the same time. It makes me suspicious about them. Now, this was supposed to be followed by an elaborate analysis on why I don't believe Kitanna to be the true ranger. So much for that. I still don't understand why she revealed herself, she wasn't pressed so severely. She could be alive now and still saved Lalaith. Lalaith, whether you reveal the innocent or not, I don't think we will rally around him/her. Could be the cobbler, after all. I agree on Roa. Don't tell us whether s/he's the hunter. That will give the penguins something to chew on and the innocent a chance not to be killed this night. Last edited by Macalaure; 06-09-2006 at 04:44 PM. Reason: punctuation

06-09-2006, 05:16 PM	#7
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	For Diamond, with reference to this and the previous WW game...(look under Agrajag) (It came to mind when I said "oh no not again" yesterday. It was what the petunias said as they fell through space...) __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

06-09-2006, 05:27 PM	#9
Roa_Aoife Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it. Posts: 1,696	This is a quick summary of Boromir's reactions and other's reactions to him. I've noted all our "knowns" and listed the overlapping behavior. If I've made a mistake in someone's view on the matter, I apologize (this was done quickly). Please feel free to correct it as needed. NOTE: This is as things were previous to Lal's reveal (except for the phantom, as he crossposted his suspicion with the reveal and all the chaos that ensued) People Boromir Suspected Lal Roa Kitanna Ang It should be noted that two of the above are known innocents People Boromir though innocent Valier Mac Jenny Spawn Eonwe People Boromir wasn't sure about phantom Firefoot Naria Encaitare Diamond Note: one of the above is a known innocent People who suspected Boromir Lal Roa Phantom Note: Two of the above are known innocents People who thought Boromir innocent Valier Ang Jenny Diamond Mac People who didn't know either way Eonwe Naria Kitanna Spawn Firefoot Enca Note: one of the above is known innocent Overlaps Mutually suspicious Lal Roa Note: One of the above is known innocent Mutually Trusting Valier Jenny Mac Mutually Ignored/ Unsure Firefoot Naria Eonwe Enca __________________ We can't all be Roas* when it comes to analysing...* -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen

06-09-2006, 05:33 PM	#11
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Oh, and one other thing, before I go: Mac, you say that Kitanna didn't have to reveal herself. Well, I can see why she did. Things were getting very fraught, right up at deadline, and we were considering falling back on lynching her if people didn't come forward to lynch/retract on Boro. I wonder if at least one of the people around at the time was a WP, biding their time to see which way the votes were going. It was looking pretty good for the WPs at one point, both the front runners (ie Kit and I) in the voting being innocents. Any thoughts, elves? __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

06-09-2006, 05:42 PM	#12
Naria Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 500	Well this looks awfully grim for us. Yeah we caught a wp, but at the seer's and ranger's expense. And now one of the two(kitanna) is dead toDay. Not good at all. Btw can anyone answer one question that has been confusing me since it happened. Why did Kitanna feel the need to reveal herself? Hmmmm....maybe I'll find the answer myself when I go back and reread everything. I'll be back after I'm done.