WWJ IX: Psychotic Penguins: The Crossing of Helcaraxë

[Boromir88]

ps. Please, people, read the rules, and you'll find playing much easier.~spawn

That's always been my problem, I skim through the rules, and it's probably going to get me into trouble one of these days. I want to get right straight to the start, and get going, I don't go through the set-up as much as one probably should. I find rules to be boring and think that there should be none except the bare minimum to keep from an all out frenzy from going on.

It can be just a choice of words or whatever. Ask Boromir because he can seereally how that is to be done.

Oh boy a trip down memory lane. Funny thing is it looks like I just did a little typo and didn't put in a space, but actually it was done on purpose...fun times.

I'm finding it interesting (not suspicious, necessarily) that already we've had two people try to do full out analyses on everyone (Valier's doesn't really count, I'd expect stuff like that on Day 1)... to be quite honest, I wouldn't have thought there enough material to be worth doing them. For myself, I'm not really seeing anything particularly notable or suspicious yet...~Firefoot

For me it's setting up what's coming up next, in that I was getting down sort of the first "feelings" of everyone's post. Most people had posted by this time and many more several times, and I was remarking upon the type of feel that I got from their posts, which is all leading up to what I'm doing soon.

I'm not trying to squelch conversation. I'm trying to turn it from fruitless cobbler-and-see talk to penguin catching. I've been in 3 separate villages where an evil villager was lynched on the first day, and I'm the last person you'll see complain about not having much to go on on day 1, especially since I ascribe none of those kills to luck.~Jenny

My fault then and this makes you seem more innocent in my eyes. I still stand by that it will be beneficial to lay down plans and ideas that our gifteds may want to consider. It's their own decision to come up with, but just some ideas for them to think about. I agree only good to the penguins can come out of someone saying "I think so and so may be the Seer," but was pointing out this was not the case. It was possible strategies being discussed, not actually naming anyone. And that response there makes you look innocent to me.

So now onto what I was talking about before and the kind of feel I got off of people's post. These are the ones that to me, as of right now have a more innocent look to them:

Spawn
Jenny
Eonwe
Valier
Macalaure

Most of them I already explained why they appear innocent before. Spawn for her input on Anguirel she seems innocent. I don't know yet what to make of Anguirel, but Spawn's input is beneficial, helpful, and usually I don't suspect the one's who announce stronger suspicions this early. For it's a bold move for a WP to stick their neck out and first really start the suspicions.

Unsure, now these following people could really go either way. Some have a more innocent feel to them, but wouldn't put it past them if they were a WP. Others there's just nothing definitive to go off of and outrightly declare them in the other two categories:

phantom
Firefoot
Naria
Encaitare
Diamond

phantom always has strategies always appears helpful, and right now seems to be more innocent. There's nothing that cries out penguin, but the scary thing with phantom is he'll play the exact same whether he's innocent or not. He'll be proposing ideas, talking strategies...etc, be it he innocent or evil penguin.

Firefoot, hasn't said a whole lot yet, seems to be more observant so far today. Perhaps that's just because there's really not too much out there. Again, like phantom, I like the advice from her so far, but it wouldn't surprise me if she was a wolf.

Naria and Encaitare both haven't posted anything yet. Well Naria did, but I'm not counting that. So, I can't make a decision on them yet at all.

And Diamond has just confused me so far. The cobbler business seemed awkward to me, I'm glad she came out and explained it more, but she's not done anything to make me feel like she's innocent like the "innocent looking" group.

And those who seem strange and since I'll be gone for 2-3 hours then come back, one of these people will most likely get my vote today.

Roa
Lalaith
Anguirel
Kitanna

Roa has come in established a presence in the village, but really hasn't if you know what I mean. Also, as I remarked before I don't agree with the "don't throw around theories or baseless arguments," and what do I propose you want us to do to catch a penguin miss Guardian?

Lalaith is the one I'm probably most concerned about right now. I said in my last post I didn't see anything that caught my alarm, but now with her recent post there have been a few things:

Talks about the confusion caused by the cobber, and also agrees with phantom, that the cobbler doesn’t know anything, but then seems to say it is important to lynch him anyway, which is I think what Roa was saying.

If you read through more carefully yes I agreed with both phantom and Roa but they were two seperate points made about the cobbler. I said yes to phantom saying the cobbler's guess to who the penguins are as good as an ordinary villager...meaning they don't know. And I agreed with Roa that the cobbler's death would be a positive for the village. Now this comment didn't seem to strange to me at first but it's what comes after:

Looking over it, I'm quite interested in a few things, such as people who seem to be taking up two points of view simultaneously

I am also having bad feelings about my old comrades in evil, Boro and phantom.

It just seems like she's trying to nudge suspicion towards other people. Not outrightly make a stance, just kind of saying "hey I have a bad feeling about them," or "this is odd" (and then something that was misinterpretted). Just seems to me that she's trying to get suspicion nudged towards other people without risking a lot.

Anguirel, I must say Spawns comments were very intriguing on Anguirel. At first it seemed to me like Anguirel was going off with what he had at the time, but good points have been raised against him. I'm going to hold off until he gets back.

Kitanna, she's looking suspicious not as a penguin but as the cobbler. Comes in with the first post, but I must say Kitanna you have confused a lot of stuff. Which means I don't think a penguin would be this clumsy so right now you feel like the cobbler.

This is also a good plan because if a non-gifted villager drops a subtle hint on who they think is guilty and turns out to be correct the penquins may kill him/her thinking they had gotten the real seer. Of course we would lose an innocent in the process, but our seer would be intake.

Actually phantom's plan (as I have read it, again correct me if I am wrong) was not to hint guilts, but to hint innocents. Because phantom argued that if someone is hinting guilts and it's not one of the penguins, then the penguins know that person must not then be the Seer. So, to cover the seer it's hinting innocents therefor the penguins have a harder time finding the seer, not guilty ones as you have seed.

Boromir said he doubts phantom would be such a double-bluffer, today I'm inclined to believe that.

Actually I said of everyone in this village I expected phantom the most likely to pull a double-bluff.

Kitanna's made a few misinterpretations it looks like, seems too clubsy to be a penguin, but very well could be the cobbler.

[Boromir88]

...just cross posted with a bunch of people, but I have to go for now so will be back later with more.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Actually phantom's plan (as I have read it, again correct me if I am wrong) was not to hint guilts, but to hint innocents. Because phantom argued that if someone is hinting guilts and it's not one of the penguins, then the penguins know that person must not then be the Seer. So, to cover the seer it's hinting innocents therefor the penguins have a harder time finding the seer, not guilty ones as you have seed.

I know phantom's plan is to hint innocents, but I'm saying hinting a guilty can benefit too, incase the innocent's hint happens to be right.

PS: Anguirel, I got you confused with someone else. So my point about you being quiet is no longer valid.

[Anguirel]

Right. Well, I do share some of Boromir's concerns about Lalaith. She's in an extremely neutral position. She grandly, but quite languidly, sanctioned dancing spawn's angle on my nefariousness (though considerate as ever she was prepared to factor in IRL) and then casts a rather wide net:

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I agree that Ang should be watched closely - also Di, who can hide much behind the kooky facade, and Macalaure, so keen to emphasise his newbie status and yet able to worst phantom on the cobbler issue.

However, she's fishing in a pretty wide sea, after all, so perhaps she can be excused. Unless my metaphor turns out to be literal and pinquoid, of course, ho ho.

The thing about me being "one of nature's Cobblers" stung rather, I confess. But I shouldn't let that affect my actions unduly.

Neither am I going to vote for the phantom. I do not condemn him, only his Master Plans, which Macalaure has proved adept at ripping apart. I don't much like plans. Particularly at this stage.

I will probably vote for Eonwe or Kitanna-decision and reasoning pending.

EDIT: Kitanna-just a guess-did you confuse me with Formendacil? We are actually twins separated at birth, y'know.

[Diamond18]

Valier, tp almost always uses the arrow in his posts.

[Anguirel]

Right. My case on Kitanna was basically founded on her way of being-like Lalaith actually, but at greater length-a backer, not a starter. She qualifies and hedges and does not greatly disagree with those going before her. I also thought she might be obscuring truths with layers of theory, but it's dawned on me she just made a couple of mistakes.

So with little time to lose I am going to have to vote for Eonwe with the shoddy justification of his quietness. I really must dash soon or I won't get any supper-I'll try to get back before the deadline and possibly retract but I fear it will be tricky.

Better a pretty lame vote than no vote at all, eh?

++EONWE

[Firefoot]

Though Anguirel makes a reasonable point about Spawn focusing on him and not Firefoot and Roa. He says he won't make a case of it, but he brings it forward twice so that no one forgets Spawn went for him and not the other two. A reasonable post, but a bit of it feels like him trying to throw the suspicions off himself and onto Spawn.

That caught my eye too. Actually, more interesting to me is that Spawn brought up Roa and myself in the first place at that point... I only had one post, and it wasn't exactly a very weighty one either. Not exactly much to look at. There might be more now, I suppose, but not much... as Anguirel noted, I'm sort of in observation mode at the moment. Day 3 is usually about when I start getting it in gear, maybe Day 2 if the village has been active.

But you are assuming randomness, and that simply does not hold. An iceberger does not, perhaps, know anything, but neither are we incapable of intelligent analysis. The more information we have to work with, the higher the chance of being correct in our analyses. And each innocent revealed by death increases the real information we have, and makes analysis even stronger. I have great faith in the power of these icebergers!!

Exactly. And it's a lot easier to pick out an innocent than a penguin.

[Macalaure]

Jenny, I got the counting wrong. You're right, it's 11/14 and the second day it's 8/11 then, because you can't pick the same twice. But that's even worse actually. Enough of that.

Why does Ang vote for the silent Eonwe, when Enca has been even more silent?

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

con: If everybody has his own "If I was the seer, then"-list, then the wolves can cancel out everybody who has a wrong guess on his list as a possible seer. No good. So the real seer has to mix at least one wrong dream into his list.

No-one talked about lists. Having lists won't be a good thing.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I know phantom's plan is to hint innocents, but I'm saying hinting a guilty can benefit too, incase the innocent's hint happens to be right.

I think normal cases work better than hints when trying to deduce who's guilty.


Anguirel, you are far from a bore, you know that, but that wasn't the point. Also, not everything I write is meant to accuse. This, for example...

"At that point ten people had posted and he picked six of them (who had posted once or twice) to inspect" ~Spawn about Ang

...wasn't an accusation, I'm just clearing the backgrounds.

Originally Posted by Ang

Incidentally, Ungoliantina m'dear, what happened to your Firefoot and Roa analyses? Not enough material?

Ooh, I got a new nickname? Thanks! (Although I like the old one even better.) Yes, you're right. That and lack of time. Roa has posted only once, and even though I could have made a case out of that, I wanted to see if there would be something funny in her other posts, too, or if it was just a first post thing before I accuse her. It was pretty much the same with Firefoot. Besides, I don't want to say out loud what caught my attention in their posts before I have more evidence. But hey, at least we got some discussion going on so that certain experienced players won't get bored...


I'll vote soon, but I have no idea yet who shall get my vote. I'll go rereading a bit.

[Diamond18]

Alright, well, here's my "this is my gut feelings on people" post. I'm probably totally off base as usual, but hey, one must participate as much as one is able.

Valier - seems her usual self, nothimg much to comment on, could be anything.

Diamond18 - Quack. Or whatever it is that penguins say.

Naria - One little post. Naria's usually quiet, but this makes her dangerous. I worry.

Macalaure - New, outspoken, feels genuine and innocent. Tied with Ang for most posts so far.

Lalaith - Only two posts and does a rather early analysis. Hmmm. Not sure what to think.

Firefoot - Feels innocent.

Jenny - Feeling innocent to me so far, she's posted a bit more than in the last few games, almost reminds me of when she used to actually be on the good side. So, feels innocent.

Roa - One post? Roa, why aren't you posting?

phantom - Feels okay for now.

Boromir - Seems quite innocent.

spawn - Feels innocent

Kitanna - She seems a bit too outspoken and somewhat careless in some of her points to be a KitPenguin. Evil Kitanna, note, is usually very careful and nearly impossible to find fault with.

Encaitare - No posts. Interesting. I've never played with Enca and don't know any of her habits. Could someone enlighten me?

Anguirel - Feels okay. For now.

Eonwe - Quiet, a bit shady.

I'll be off for a bit but back before the deadline to vote.

[Roa_Aoife]

Okay, I typed this as I read through, so it might be a little messy. Also, I'm going to go back through, now that we're near the end of Day 1, to analyze a few people who have peaked my interest. These are people that don't sit right with me, so I'll be back. Also, I apologize for my long absence- I was kept busy with some RL things.

Originally Posted by phantom

Well yeah, but if that situation comes up a clever villager could preempt the WPs and step forward and claim to be a WP and demand that the Cobbler vote with him. Then perhaps a real WP would step forward to contest the claim? Then it would be up to the Cobbler to decide who was the real WP.

In your scenario, the other villagers would have to figure out which WP was which as well, thus creating general confusion. It would hurt the village more than it would hurt the WP's or the cobbler.

To everyone- I believe spawn already said this, but the seer knows what he/she is doing. Leave them alone, and let them figure out their own plan. It's up to them if they drop hints or keep quiet. I've seen both be useful to the village, and it will depend on the seer and what they wish to do.

Originally Posted by Boromir

Roa there is a common misconception about theories, everyone seems to think it's just baseless and preposterous. Now a true theory is a hypothesis based UPON facts. So, the facts are sitting out there and then based on those facts you form a hypothesis which = theory. And for everybody except the wps and the Seer all we have to find the penguins are theories. Which means taking facts, like what people say, how they vote, who's killed...etc taking that knowledge and using it to present a hypothesis that is backed up by facts (aka a theory).

I never said I disliked theories, just that I'm better at analysis and summaries, like the one Lal provided. The truth is, you can postulate all day long, but in the end hard evidence, like what is provided in summaries and analysis, can't be denied with any sort of reasonableness, unlike a theory which can be shown false. In the end, you can't deny a fact. But that is neither here nor there- we all have our own way of playing, and we are all pretty good at it.

Originally Posted by kitanna

Once again he brings up the phantom and his natural distrust for him. Seems like overkill, he made it clear he doesn't trust the phantom in his first few posts, but he brings it up too often for comfort. We all have certain players we distrust because of what has happened in the past, but there is no need to reinstate that point in almost all one's posts.

While I trust Ang about as much as I trust anyone (ie, not at all), the point made here is faulty. Ang was answering the suspicion against him stated by Spawn, not trying to continually point out his distrust for phantom. His repeat of Spawn's focus on him is suspicious, but not this. After all, he was questioned for it- we'd suspect him more if he refused to answer.

Originally Posted by Boromir

Roa has come in established a presence in the village, but really hasn't if you know what I mean. Also, as I remarked before I don't agree with the "don't throw around theories or baseless arguments," and what do I propose you want us to do to catch a penguin miss Guardian?

As I stated previously- I said I wasn't one for theories, but I never said don't state them. I did, however, say that we should be wary of baseless arguments, because they are, in fact, baseless. Trying to get someone lynched with no real reasoning is highly suspicious to me. For example- I will be the first to say Valier's instincts are scarily accurate, but I won't simply go along with her suspicions if she is unable to back them up in anyway. I cannot, and maintain my intellectual integrity. Are you suggesting that we simply ignore reasoning all together? I will not follow an illogical suggestion.

EDIT: Cross posted with Diamond and Enca- don't worry, I'm here, I've just been tied up.

[Lalaith]

Well, I'm sorry so many of you are bored. I'm not.
I think we've had some rather interesting responses so far.
Firstly, the joint prodding of Spawn and myself have done wonders for Ang - he seems to be back to his charmingly prickly self. (There, do you feel better now, Ang? "Nature's Cobbler", I only meant you had an inherent sense of mischief. Honest...)
I also cast some aspersions elsewhere, and there have been some interesting responses to that, too. Two people say they find analyses boring/pointless, and then do fairly lengthy analyses themselves. Diamond, your last post, you go through everyone and basically say you think they are all innocent? What was the point?
Then there is Boromir. I mention him in my list of suspects, he retaliates by putting me at the head of his list, and seems to be quoting from two of my posts implying they are from the same post. He also seems to have read my initial post more carefully than he appears to have done...something I have seen werecreatures do before.
Like I said, it's all very interesting. But then, maybe I'm easily pleased.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Diamond, your last post, you go through everyone and basically say you think they are all innocent? What was the point?

It's my feelings on everyone. So sue me if you all feel mostly innocent.

Though, if you'll notice I did not actually say "I think everyone is innocent." I could either suggest you go reread my post or just point out that I have slightly niggling feelings about:

YOU
Roa
Eonwe
Naria
Enca
Valier

Okay, now I'm really off for a bit.

[JennyHallu]

Yay for one retraction. The end of my embroidery duties approaches, and at about this time daily I must take a short constitutional before true relaxation begins. Sometimes I make it home and back to iceberg duties by nightfall, and sometimes I do not. Therefore: a vote!

++a phantom

Because I distrust "innocent tests" with reasons withheld. Even a seer looks for bogus reasons for his trust, and trust or distrust granted without reasoning doesn't help anybody.

This may or may not change. I don't know.

[Valier]

I've been reading through and just wanted to say a little bit about my thoughts on each player so far.

Ok so on my list of potential WP's I have Anguirel, Naria, phantom.
I think the points Spawn made about Ang were sound and having played with Ang before I know he is a very compatent werecreature. I know for a fact that he will still attack and argue and banter even if he is a baddie which makes him dangerous. Naria on the other hand is always quiet and hard to judge, making it easy for her to slip by. Now I have only played with the phantom once and I see that he did use an arrow in his posts there, but I find it distracting. It makes me think he does it on purpose to mess with people like me.

Others I find iffy so far are Mac, hiding behind a newbie status can help when used right, but all the math so early on in the game makes me leery.I think Eonwe is always a potential threat and needs to be watched or else he too can slip by undetected for a long time.

Most of the others I either have no idea about yet or they feel innocent. Jenny, Spawn, Boromir, Diamond, Firefoot are in my feels innocent list.

[the phantom]

No time right now- I'm on a quick break at work. I'll be back later.

I just wanted to say that, for reasons which I'll reveal later if I feel like it, I strongly believe that Mac is innocent. He took my innocent bait, you might say.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I just wanted to say that, for reasons which I'll reveal later if I feel like it, I strongly believe that Mac is innocent. He took my innocent bait, you might say.

Unless the whole thing was orchestrated by you... One thing that I find interesting in Macalaure is that he (she? Apologies, but could someone confirm that) seems to be aware of the subtleties of the Cobbler role and how a Seer can hide, for example, but messes up some basic things. Seems a bit orchestrated, as I said, but on the other hand, I can still remember my WW newbie days.

I'm suspicious of Kitanna as well. Her suggestion in post #49 could be rather disastrous for innocents and she's been a bit careless toDay. Yeah, I suspected Ang for being careful and Kitanna for being careless. Oh well.

Also, there's still something that makes me wary of Firefoot's, but I need to go now, so I don't have time to explain.

I was a little suspicious of Jenny, but now I think that she's either the Cobbler or an innocent. If she's a penguin, then I must say that was a nice trick.


++ Kitanna

Good Night!

[Roa_Aoife]

Boromir analysis (because he's seemed off to me since his second post)

1st post

Nonsense (ie in character posting), says the biggest set back of the cobbler is the confusion that could be caused, agrees that getting rid of the cobbler is benefitial to the village

2nd post

Says Valier and Eonwe are acting too wierd to be penguins, thinks Firefoot is logical, doesn't see anything of significance in Roa's, phantom's or Diamond's posts.

3rd post

Says the only person he would expect to double bluff is phantom, or possibly ang,lists all the villagers minus himself:

Valier- too eccentric to be guilty
Diamond- also too eccentric, but he finds her quote about the seer and cobbler odd

Doesn't know about Naria

Mac- thinks mac is innocent, and behaving like a newbie
Lal- doesn't mind summaries, but doesn't really see a point
Firefoot- if innocent, good, if not, bad
Jenny- trying to squelch conversation
Roa- goes off about theories being a good thing
phantom- more likely to be a penguin than Mac, acting normally
spawn- seems fishy
Ang- nothing strange
Eonwe- having day 1 fun

Disagrees with phantom's plan

4th post

doesn't like to read the rules, remark about typos, answers Firefoots remark about analysis,responds to Jenny with apologies, thinks it's a good idea to lay down ideas for the gifted to follow

List of blieved innocents:

Spawn- for input about Ang
Jenny-
Eonwe
Valier
Macalaure

List of iffys

phantom- phantom plays the same when guilty or innocent
Firefoot- more observant than anything else
Naria- nothing really posted
Encaitare- nothing posted
Diamond- too confusing

List of suspected

Roa- doesn't like her supposed dis of theories
Lalaith- thinks lal is trying to nudge suspicion towards other people
Anguirel- spawn's comments
Kitanna- cobbler

5th post

Note on having cross posted

analysis to follow

[Firefoot]

Jenny, Diamond, and Macalure all feel rather innocent to me right now.

I have to go (or at least I will shortly), so a vote:

++Lalaith

She just isn't sitting right with me.

[Boromir88]

Are you suggesting that we simply ignore reasoning all together? I will not follow an illogical suggestion.~Roa

I don't recall suggesting we should ignore reasoning. I find theories facts and reasoning to go hand-and-hand and should be used. If I misinterpretted what you said then that's my own mistake, but I read this:

That said, we should be very careful concerning theories and reasoning, and look very closely for faulty logic or baseless assumptions, especially if someone keeps stating a theory as fact.

And to me it looked like you were comparing theories to "baseless assumptions." But, a theory isn't a theory without facts to support it. So, I was saying that theories aren't baseless because theories have facts to back it up (according to the true definition of a theory that is), and if it doesn't have facts then it's not a theory. Anyway point is, I thought there you were saying theories were baseless and we shouldn't use them. If that's not what you were saying then I stand corrected.

Two people say they find analyses boring/pointless, and then do fairly lengthy analyses themselves. Diamond, your last post, you go through everyone and basically say you think they are all innocent? What was the point?
Then there is Boromir. I mention him in my list of suspects, he retaliates by putting me at the head of his list, and seems to be quoting from two of my posts implying they are from the same post. He also seems to have read my initial post more carefully than he appears to have done...something I have seen werecreatures do before.

If you are here saying I am one of those two people you'll find you are greatly wrong. I never said, nor will I ever say that analysis is boring and pointless. I said for me I don't use "summaries" because I don't see why we hsould it's all right there. I'm perfectly fine with people using summaries, if that helps them sort out everything, but me personally I don't use them and I don't see a point in them. But I never said I was anti-analysis if that's what you are implying, that's actually all I really do.

If you call it retaliation then so be it, I can't change your opinion on that. But accusing me because I like to read through carefully? Sorry if I like to look at what people are posting. Perhaps you should read through more carefully instead of applying twisted logic to what I say.

He also seems to have read my initial post more carefully than he appears to have done...something I have seen werecreatures do before.

No I read through your first post carefully the first time. Initially, your first post I found no concern over, even though you did suspect me. It was your post after when I went back and re-thought about your first post. Because in your second post you were just kind of snipping around saying some names of people you're suspicious of but without saying anything else. Just that phantom and I seem odd to you.

and seems to be quoting from two of my posts implying they are from the same post.

Even if that's what I was doing I fail to see what significance it would have. Seems to me Lalaith you're grasping at straws trying to dig your way out of a hole.

I know phantom's plan is to hint innocents, but I'm saying hinting a guilty can benefit too, incase the innocent's hint happens to be right.~Kitanna

It looked to me like you were saying you agreed with phantom's plan then talked about naming guiltys, but phantom's plan said we shouldn't name who we thought was guilty. So really you weren't agreeing with phantom's plan, because his plan was against that.

[Boromir88]

Wow Roa this is greatly surprising me...

he said there wasn't enough in my post for him to say anything, but later on he sites that same post for moving me to the top of his suspicion list.

Umm, that list wasn't in anyway numbered. Perhaps you should go reread where I said I was Lalaith concerned me the most.

Really, misquoting yourself? Boromir is looking very bad to me right now, and I will most likely vote for him. There a few others that I will look at though, if I have the time. (I'm a little short on that at the moment.)

Talk about being picky here are we. I have one little word change and I'm contradicting myself? Kitanna said that I didn't think phantom would double-bluff, and I said no you should go back and reread where I said he is the one I feel most likely would double-bluff.

Then he stated on his point about Lalaith that he didn't like summaries- in the middle of a summary he was doing himself.

Umm I never have posted nor never will post a summary. There's a difference between going through every post on each person and reciting what they said (which is a summary) and going through the posts and staying one's feelings on everyone (which I would call analysis).

Roa, I find this act of taking things out of context and twisting really really strange did I hit a nerve?

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by boromir

And to me it looked like you were comparing theories to "baseless assumptions."

Well, you were mistaken. I said that we should be wary of baseless arguments. It's too easy to misdirect people with an argumetn that has no fact behind it. Also, while theories are supported by facts, they are not, in themselves, fact, and someone who seems eager to have us adhere to one theory as fact is directly misleading us. You said this:

Originally Posted by boromir

don't throw around theories or baseless arguments," and what do I propose you want us to do to catch a penguin miss Guardian?

I didn't say "don't throw around" anything. I said becareful of those who do. Theories are all well and good- baseless arguments aren't. It greatly concerns me that you would hold those up.

If you are here saying I am one of those two people you'll find you are greatly wrong. I never said, nor will I ever say that analysis is boring and pointless. I said for me I don't use "summaries" because I don't see why we hsould it's all right there. I'm perfectly fine with people using summaries, if that helps them sort out everything, but me personally I don't use them and I don't see a point in them.

Saying that you don't see a point in something and saying that something is pointless is the same thing. Way to contradict yourself again.

Even if that's what I was doing I fail to see what significance it would have.

It means that you're trying to look like you're giving a well thought out analysis, when you are- in short, misleading the village. I also note that you didn't outright deny it.