LotR2-TTT-Seq17 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 06-07-2006, 03:25 PM

Ryan_Wizard_Prince, welcome and thanks for posting. Think that you jumped ahead a bit, but that's okay.

It seems with Aragorn at one moment he thinks that Helm's Deep is a mistake, but then defends the position that Theoden has taken. As Theoden has about 200 (more or less) soldiers with him at this time, he doesn't have many options, and to ride out and fight the enemy on the plains would be a faster way to get to his fathers.

06-07-2006, 05:00 PM

Thanx alatar,
Yeah I jumped ahead a bit but you know Theidens "poor me" thingy just annoys me. Don't get me wrong I respect Theoden but he needs to get over himself. Aragorn was the only one who made Helms Deep possible if he hadn't stepped up they would've lost. Whew now that that is out of the way. I really do like Rohan they are a sturdy rugged people and will endure . . . or at least until Sauron is gone. hehehehe

alatar · 06-07-2006, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan_Wizard_Prince

Thanx alatar,
Yeah I jumped ahead a bit but you know Theidens "poor me" thingy just annoys me. Don't get me wrong I respect Theoden but he needs to get over himself. Aragorn was the only one who made Helms Deep possible if he hadn't stepped up they would've lost. Whew now that that is out of the way. I really do like Rohan they are a sturdy rugged people and will endure . . . or at least until Sauron is gone. hehehehe

That's cool, as I see from the opposite side. To me, Aragorn has his head in the clouds as there's no way for Theoden to launch any type of offensive, and even if he wanted to request aid from Gondor, help would not arrive in time. So Theoden's simply making the best of a very bad situation, and shows leadership by encouraging his people, unlike Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. Wasn't that Denethor II's sin in the books, vainly giving up and giving in, thinking of only his own life?

And I don't see how, at this point in the movie, that Aragorn could be taken seriously by the Helmlingas. He's only fought one battle with them, and he went over a cliff at the end of that one. The Rohirrim cannot yet trust this stick-at-not Ranger, and it's not until he proves himself a bit that they might follow his lead and not the orders of their Lord.

06-08-2006, 05:28 PM

Absolutly I agree that the Helilingas have yet to put trust in Aragorn and Co. But there king and Gandalf trust them so shouldn't that be enough?

Elladan and Elrohir · 06-17-2006, 07:45 PM

This sequence is great, even if played up for drama. Oh well, what do you expect from a movie?

I love the look on Aragorn's face when Theoden ridicules Gondor. Talk about hitting a guy where it hurts. . . . You'll see it again in ROTK when Theoden gives his piece about "Why should we ride to the aid of those who would not ride to ours?"

Theoden may be sensible, but Aragorn is the one who is actually willing to lead. Who organizes the defense? Apparently 'Gorn. Where's Aragorn when the Uruks show up? He's on the wall, giving commands to the (Elven) archers. Where's Theoden? Standing at some good vantage point in the Hornburg, safely away from the action.

(And yes, of course I realize that 1, that's just following the book, and 2, Theoden does eventually show up to fight at the gate. But still...)

06-17-2006, 09:13 PM

Yes but Aragorn is just coming into his right as King and Ruler of Men. This "sequence" is ment to show him just as much as us that he is capable of leading men with honor and dignity.

alatar · 06-21-2006, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

Theoden may be sensible, but Aragorn is the one who is actually willing to lead. Who organizes the defense? Apparently 'Gorn. Where's Aragorn when the Uruks show up? He's on the wall, giving commands to the (Elven) archers. Where's Theoden? Standing at some good vantage point in the Hornburg, safely away from the action.

I would disagree. Theoden is the leader here, realizing, unlike the dreamer Aragorn, that they are in a desperate situation, and if there's bad news, one doesn't shout it to frighten the others.

And though Aragorn does swing a sword a bit, Theoden sets a spear into an Uruk. A King need not fight with a sword to be a great leader. Gandalf, at least in the books, never really gets involved in Third Age combat, and leads from the rear.

Aragorn may come into his own, but PJ hasn't convinced me that he's Kingly material yet.

Essex · 09-06-2006, 03:43 AM

I think this is how PJ saw it though, with Aragorn being the true leader at the battle for Helm's Deep.

Aragorn was there marshelling the Elvish troops who had turned up. But as the old Rohan bloke takes aim and fires at the first Orc and Aragorn shouts at him to stop, you should see the look on Theoden's face!!! A sort of "who does he think he is" look mingled with a look of compliance - Theoden realises it would be self defeating to argue with aragorn at the time of battle.

But Theoden DOES lead his own troops, and orders the retreat to Aragorn later on I suppose.

My main reasoning behind thinking PJ saw it that Aragorn was the leader in this defence is Theoden's line to Eoywn later that he did not lead the defence of helm's deep himself.

whoops - realised Ive posted to the wrong thread- this happens later - silly me

06-07-2006, 03:25 PM	#1
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Ryan_Wizard_Prince, welcome and thanks for posting. Think that you jumped ahead a bit, but that's okay. It seems with Aragorn at one moment he thinks that Helm's Deep is a mistake, but then defends the position that Theoden has taken. As Theoden has about 200 (more or less) soldiers with him at this time, he doesn't have many options, and to ride out and fight the enemy on the plains would be a faster way to get to his fathers. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

06-07-2006, 05:00 PM	#2
Ryan_Wizard_Prince Guest Posts: n/a	A sword day, A red day, Ere the Sun rises Thanx alatar, Yeah I jumped ahead a bit but you know Theidens "poor me" thingy just annoys me. Don't get me wrong I respect Theoden but he needs to get over himself. Aragorn was the only one who made Helms Deep possible if he hadn't stepped up they would've lost. Whew now that that is out of the way. I really do like Rohan they are a sturdy rugged people and will endure . . . or at least until Sauron is gone. hehehehe

06-17-2006, 07:45 PM	#5
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	This sequence is great, even if played up for drama. Oh well, what do you expect from a movie? I love the look on Aragorn's face when Theoden ridicules Gondor. Talk about hitting a guy where it hurts. . . . You'll see it again in ROTK when Theoden gives his piece about "Why should we ride to the aid of those who would not ride to ours?" Theoden may be sensible, but Aragorn is the one who is actually willing to lead. Who organizes the defense? Apparently 'Gorn. Where's Aragorn when the Uruks show up? He's on the wall, giving commands to the (Elven) archers. Where's Theoden? Standing at some good vantage point in the Hornburg, safely away from the action. (And yes, of course I realize that 1, that's just following the book, and 2, Theoden does eventually show up to fight at the gate. But still...) __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

09-06-2006, 03:43 AM	#8
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	I think this is how PJ saw it though, with Aragorn being the true leader at the battle for Helm's Deep. Aragorn was there marshelling the Elvish troops who had turned up. But as the old Rohan bloke takes aim and fires at the first Orc and Aragorn shouts at him to stop, you should see the look on Theoden's face!!! A sort of "who does he think he is" look mingled with a look of compliance - Theoden realises it would be self defeating to argue with aragorn at the time of battle. But Theoden DOES lead his own troops, and orders the retreat to Aragorn later on I suppose. My main reasoning behind thinking PJ saw it that Aragorn was the leader in this defence is Theoden's line to Eoywn later that he did not lead the defence of helm's deep himself. whoops - realised Ive posted to the wrong thread- this happens later - silly me Last edited by Essex; 09-06-2006 at 03:55 AM.

06-08-2006, 05:28 PM	#4
Ryan_Wizard_Prince Guest Posts: n/a	Absolutly I agree that the Helilingas have yet to put trust in Aragorn and Co. But there king and Gandalf trust them so shouldn't that be enough?

06-17-2006, 09:13 PM	#6
Ryan_Wizard_Prince Guest Posts: n/a	Yes but Aragorn is just coming into his right as King and Ruler of Men. This "sequence" is ment to show him just as much as us that he is capable of leading men with honor and dignity.