Why did Gandalf have a ring?

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Very logical to assume that Celebrimbor was originally supposed to be the bearer of Narya. I agree that Cirdan likely had little use for it in his isolated dwelling on the Havens.

Here's a question that I, who have read all the books many times, still have. Gandalf, in his immortal confrontation with the Balrog, calls himself "a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor." I believe that all of the wizards were called as servants of the Secret Fire, or the Flame Imperishable, correct? Is this synomymous with the Flame of Anor? If not, why not, and could Narya be the Flame of Anor? It seems a rather presumptive term to give to a Ring, even a great Ring of Power.

I humbly bow to the wisdom of the masters on this issue.

And, I must also draw attention to myself by noting that this is my 200th post. I have been a member of the Downs for quite a while now, but have only posted on occasion. Still, it is wonderful to be a member, and to be able to participate in such intellectually stimulating Tolkien-based discussions as this one.

[narfforc]

The Flame Imperishable/Secret fire was placed in Arda at the creation of world. It is believed by some that the Ainur could use this Secret Fire in actions in accord with the design created in the Music.

The reference to Anor/The Sun I believe is in keeping with the fight of Light vs Darkness, setting The Light of The Two Trees against The Darkness of Udun/Hell that was found in Utumno. The Light that originated in The West in opposition to the Dark that dwelt in The Un-west

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by narfforc

The Flame Imperishable/Secret fire was placed in Arda at the creation of world. It is believed by some that the Ainur could use this Secret Fire in actions in accord with the design created in the Music.

While there's certainly no doubt that the Secret Fire was a reference to the Flame Imperishable, could Gandalf in his infinite wit, have also been cleverly referring to his secret possession of the ring of fire?

[Boromir88]

So Círdan just kept it without ever using it, until Gandalf showed up.~Angry Hill Troll

I wouldn't say Cirdan never used it. Cirdan did his fair share of leading armies in the wars against Morgoth, and then later on helping the Dunedain against Angmar. Now, Cirdan did reach a point where he decided to remain in the Grey Havens and stay there. But, he was very active in the previous wars, so I doubt he never used his ring.

[Raynor]

Boromir, do you imply that Cirdan used the ring in the war against the armies of Melkor? The ring was forged in the second age.

[narfforc]

I do not think that the Ring of Fire was used in the way you may be suggesting Sardy, If you look at what Cirdan says when giving Gandalf the Ring shows a different aspect of it's qualities: .......it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage (UT) or .....rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill (Sil). There is no mention of Narya being able to shoot out fire as many think, and Gandalf's reference to wielding the Flame of Anor has nothing to do with Narya, Anor refers to the Sun, and the Rings were not created to destroy, and I doubt at the insance Gandalf utters those words, it would scare the Balrog if Gandalf meant flames, it was already a spirit of Fire. Some have tried linking the Rings to the elements, therefore the Narya/Sun combination, but that would mean Four Rings, where is the Brown Ring of Dirt, why only Water, Air and Fire?. If we follow the Ring of Fire/Fireball Wielder theory then what do Nenya and Vilya shoot out, nothing is the answer. The Rings work on a more spiritual level.

P.S I am not saying that you are one of the Fireball Wielder theorists Sardy, I just wanted to make a statement that some believe Narya made Gandalf into some kind of Human Torch.......................Flame On!

My spirits burns with passion for the Works of Tolkien, but I am not on fire
My anger burns when I hear Germaine Greers voice, but I am not on fire
I carry a flame for a certain famous Irish female singer, but it does not burn me.

[Boromir88]

Boromir, do you imply that Cirdan used the ring in the war against the armies of Melkor? The ring was forged in the second age.

I'm well aware of when the Rings were made. I was pointing out that Cirdan had not simply stayed in the Havens doing nothing. He was someone, in the past who had led armies and fought in wars, therefor probably would have used Narya. But when Gandalf came he had no desire to leave the Grey Havens, so he gave it to someone that could use it. If you think I was implying anything different than that, sorry but I wasn't. Thanks for being nit-picky though, because I see someone could get that impression.

[Findegil]

The Three Rings were never supposed to be wappens of war. And if they had been, Gandalf would not have been a good choice to give such a wappen to, since the Istari were not supposed to be leader in war action.

About Celebrimbor: He did not make the Rings to be used for anybody else but himself. Thus as long as Sauron had not finished his Ring he wore them all three and may be even more Rings of power as he surely had been the maker of some of the Seven and the Nine. To give the Rings away was a plan he made together in a meeting with Galadriel just before the attack of Sauron on Eriador.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Angry Hill Troll]

Aristotle's elements vs. Tolkien's elements

Tolkien tends to follow the Aristotelian concept of "elements" but with one difference: "fire" and "earth" are combined into one.

Examples are that Aulë is both the Vala responsible for creating the physical structure of the Earth, and also a smith (who uses fire). The Silmaril that Maédhros took ended up "in the fires of the earth". And the "secret Fire burns at the heart of the world".

Did Círdan use Narya?

He could only have used it during the Third Age, before Gandalf showed up. Once Sauron made the One Ring, about 10 years after Celebrimbor made the Three, the elves no longer used the Three for the remainder of the Second Age, because doing so would have revealed their locations to Sauron. Círdan seems to have given Narya to Gandalf as soon as he arrived, around TA 1000 or so. The first millenium of the Third Age was pretty peaceful, so there might not have been that pressing a need to use Narya. The wars with Angmar occured after TA 1200, so at that time, Círdan no longer had the ring.

In the UT version, Círdan explicitly says that Narya is idle, so if in a different version of the story Círdan did use the ring, Tolkien would have to have changed his mind (well, that did happen at other times).

I would say that it's very unlikely that Círdan used Narya, although the wording of the story of Círdan giving it to Galdalf in LOTR doesn't explicitly say so.