LotR2-TTT-Seq16 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elladan and Elrohir · 06-03-2006, 11:50 PM

The map device seems a bit contrived to me, but since I already memorized all the information on it years ago, I don't guess it would do much for me in any case. So who else noticed that Minas Morgul didn't make the cut on the map? Minor details...

Definitely agree that Frodo and Sam are very obviously green-screening in their opening shots for this scene. Just about the only time you can tell it was used.

The brothers/evil father flashback scene is one of my favorite scenes in the movie; not only is it a great scene and well acted, but it provides crucial background information for all three characters. It is thus shocking that it didn't end up in the theatrical version, but I am definitely grateful for the extended edition.

Obviously everything has been changed quite a bit here. The only thing that remains basically the same is the capture of Gollum. As noted in the "What Happened to Gallant Captain Faramir" thread in the Movies forum, it is Frodo and Sam who have changed as much as or more than Faramir in these scenes. Not to say that Faramir hasn't been changed much, because he certainly has.

On to Osgiliath!

Macalaure · 06-07-2006, 08:16 AM

I love that scene in Osgiliath.

I mean, it's strange. We're told Osgiliath shall be re-populated and that it was Faramir who lost it (we're not told Osgiliath already was a ruin before, so Faramir's failure is even more grave), Boromir's and Faramir's dream is omitted and we get the first glimpse of what is supposed to be Denethor. We are all supposed to hate this scene!

Yet...

I think it's the atmosphere that more than saves it. There's a certain melancholy, a nostalgic rememberance of a time when life was better in Gondor, which is brilliantly caught. For the only time we see Boromir and Faramir together, and all this inside a flashback of Faramir who was just told that his brother is no more.

By the way, I don't think the dream would have worked on screen, so I'm not mad about its omission at all.

The mauling of Gollum is hard to watch indeed. As we have just been told that looking upon, not to mention fishing within, the pool bears the penalty of death, it appears to me that Faramir lets his men compensate for not being allowed to execute the poor creature. Maybe Jackson thought this would be realistic, to me it is quite un-Tolkien. In the end the only purpose is to switch the simplified Gollum back on stinker.

Concerning the effects. When Frodo, Sam and Gollum look at the Black Gate and at the Oliphaunt, you can see they're really in front a green screen as well.

Elladan and Elrohir · 06-17-2006, 07:28 PM

Yeah, I cannot picture Southern Dunedain beating up Gollum, apparently for little more than sport. One change that I think Tolkien would definitely disapprove of.

06-21-2006, 04:35 PM

I'm starting to think it's the Window on the West chapter that PJ had problems with since the whole encounter between Faramir and Frodo was changed from the begining. I think the gollum beating was an unfortunate lapse on PJ part. I think everyone else was against it. I heard they were planning on having a scene in which Frodo turns into a gollum like creature. That would have been interesting to see.

alatar · 06-21-2006, 06:36 PM

The beating of Gollum is just plain bad. I cannot misinterpret it; it's not like they treated Gollum sternly and he acted as if it were torture. No, these were bullies beating a smaller and weaker creature. Were they knocking him around a bit to 'soften him up' for Faramir's interrogation? Why then did they not beat Sam or Frodo? Did Gollum bite one or more of them, and so did they treat him in kind?

In the books Aragorn states that the creature would never love him, as he was not gentle, but I do not see book Aragorn striking a prone Gollum as it lay weeping.

You feel sorry for the thing, and so his reconversion (or backsliding, or whatever you want to call Slinker becoming Stinker again) is justified. Frodo, rightly or wrongly, gets what he deserves as he befriends Faramir, the captain of the bullies, in the end.

PJ messed that all up.

06-21-2006, 09:37 PM

This is from the Commentary

Peter : The interrogation scene was something that used to be quite violent, and we trimmed it right back for the theatrical release; and the dvd has a little bit more of the violence put back into it,just to sense

Philippa: A little?

Peter : a little, yeah

Philippa: Pft!

Fran: Ooh!

Philippa: God!

Peter: just to sense that Gollum is being , what is the word?

Philippa: Done up!

Peter: softened up. Softened up.

Phillipa:Softened up! Is that how you soften up people,
Pete?

Peter:That

Fran: Oh , it is pretty nasty!I dont think it really represents, The Gondorian Rangers in the best possible light.

Philippa

Gollum : Why does it cry, Smeagol?) This is a great scene.

Peter:It even got worse than that,because, remember, they used tread on Gollum fingers at one stage.

Philippa: Oh , that right.

Peter: Theyd crush his fingers, which is why he sometimes has sore fingers later on, towards the end of the film.

Philippa:I quite like the fact that Faramir doesnt use brute force the way that Boromir does, and that is using

Peter

interrupting) There is some really nice animation here.

Essex · 09-01-2006, 08:12 AM

It's Dagorlad not Dagorland!!!!!!!

I also love the line as Alatar does - "No, his Gardener" - brilliant.

I'll skip the Changed faramir discussions as most of us have here as it's been done to death. I've also talked about the beating up of goullum recently in another thread.

but sufice to say, these people are at War, gollum pretty much looks like an Orc to me, he was fighting against these peole tooth and nail, so I don't really mind that much what they're doing - they are softening him up for interrogation.

why do people think that men descendant of numenor have to be so kind and gentle? as Alatar stated, Aragorn himself had to soften up gollum (but we are not told exactly what he did to gollum, and therefore some of us can gloss over this)

PJ is bringing us into the real world here showing the beating of Gollum. What was that saying about "Love and War" again......?

PS everytime I hear the words the Ring mus go to Gondor I still shudder. but maybe less and less each time I watch it - must remember, it's only a diversion!!!!!! Faramir turns out alright in the end LOL!

06-03-2006, 11:50 PM	#1
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	The map device seems a bit contrived to me, but since I already memorized all the information on it years ago, I don't guess it would do much for me in any case. So who else noticed that Minas Morgul didn't make the cut on the map? Minor details... Definitely agree that Frodo and Sam are very obviously green-screening in their opening shots for this scene. Just about the only time you can tell it was used. The brothers/evil father flashback scene is one of my favorite scenes in the movie; not only is it a great scene and well acted, but it provides crucial background information for all three characters. It is thus shocking that it didn't end up in the theatrical version, but I am definitely grateful for the extended edition. Obviously everything has been changed quite a bit here. The only thing that remains basically the same is the capture of Gollum. As noted in the "What Happened to Gallant Captain Faramir" thread in the Movies forum, it is Frodo and Sam who have changed as much as or more than Faramir in these scenes. Not to say that Faramir hasn't been changed much, because he certainly has. On to Osgiliath! __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

06-17-2006, 07:28 PM	#3
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	Yeah, I cannot picture Southern Dunedain beating up Gollum, apparently for little more than sport. One change that I think Tolkien would definitely disapprove of. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

06-21-2006, 06:36 PM	#5
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	The beating of Gollum is just plain bad. I cannot misinterpret it; it's not like they treated Gollum sternly and he acted as if it were torture. No, these were bullies beating a smaller and weaker creature. Were they knocking him around a bit to 'soften him up' for Faramir's interrogation? Why then did they not beat Sam or Frodo? Did Gollum bite one or more of them, and so did they treat him in kind? In the books Aragorn states that the creature would never love him, as he was not gentle, but I do not see book Aragorn striking a prone Gollum as it lay weeping. You feel sorry for the thing, and so his reconversion (or backsliding, or whatever you want to call Slinker becoming Stinker again) is justified. Frodo, rightly or wrongly, gets what he deserves as he befriends Faramir, the captain of the bullies, in the end. PJ messed that all up. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

06-21-2006, 09:37 PM	#6
mlwhipple Guest Posts: n/a	This is from the Commentary Peter : The interrogation scene was something that used to be quite violent, and we trimmed it right back for the theatrical release; and the dvd has a little bit more of the violence put back into it,just to sense Philippa: A little? Peter : a little, yeah Philippa: Pft! Fran: Ooh! Philippa: God! Peter: just to sense that Gollum is being , what is the word? Philippa: Done up! Peter: softened up. Softened up. Phillipa:Softened up! Is that how you soften up people, Pete? Peter:That Fran: Oh , it is pretty nasty!I dont think it really represents, The Gondorian Rangers in the best possible light. PhilippaGollum : Why does it cry, Smeagol?) This is a great scene. Peter:It even got worse than that,because, remember, they used tread on Gollum fingers at one stage. Philippa: Oh , that right. Peter: Theyd crush his fingers, which is why he sometimes has sore fingers later on, towards the end of the film. Philippa:I quite like the fact that Faramir doesnt use brute force the way that Boromir does, and that is using Peterinterrupting) There is some really nice animation here.

06-07-2006, 08:16 AM	#2
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	I love that scene in Osgiliath. I mean, it's strange. We're told Osgiliath shall be re-populated and that it was Faramir who lost it (we're not told Osgiliath already was a ruin before, so Faramir's failure is even more grave), Boromir's and Faramir's dream is omitted and we get the first glimpse of what is supposed to be Denethor. We are all supposed to hate this scene! Yet... I think it's the atmosphere that more than saves it. There's a certain melancholy, a nostalgic rememberance of a time when life was better in Gondor, which is brilliantly caught. For the only time we see Boromir and Faramir together, and all this inside a flashback of Faramir who was just told that his brother is no more. By the way, I don't think the dream would have worked on screen, so I'm not mad about its omission at all. The mauling of Gollum is hard to watch indeed. As we have just been told that looking upon, not to mention fishing within, the pool bears the penalty of death, it appears to me that Faramir lets his men compensate for not being allowed to execute the poor creature. Maybe Jackson thought this would be realistic, to me it is quite un-Tolkien. In the end the only purpose is to switch the simplified Gollum back on stinker. Concerning the effects. When Frodo, Sam and Gollum look at the Black Gate and at the Oliphaunt, you can see they're really in front a green screen as well.

06-21-2006, 04:35 PM	#4
mlwhipple Guest Posts: n/a	I'm starting to think it's the Window on the West chapter that PJ had problems with since the whole encounter between Faramir and Frodo was changed from the begining. I think the gollum beating was an unfortunate lapse on PJ part. I think everyone else was against it. I heard they were planning on having a scene in which Frodo turns into a gollum like creature. That would have been interesting to see.

09-01-2006, 08:12 AM	#7
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	It's Dagorlad not Dagorland!!!!!!! I also love the line as Alatar does - "No, his Gardener" - brilliant. I'll skip the Changed faramir discussions as most of us have here as it's been done to death. I've also talked about the beating up of goullum recently in another thread. but sufice to say, these people are at War, gollum pretty much looks like an Orc to me, he was fighting against these peole tooth and nail, so I don't really mind that much what they're doing - they are softening him up for interrogation. why do people think that men descendant of numenor have to be so kind and gentle? as Alatar stated, Aragorn himself had to soften up gollum (but we are not told exactly what he did to gollum, and therefore some of us can gloss over this) PJ is bringing us into the real world here showing the beating of Gollum. What was that saying about "Love and War" again......? PS everytime I hear the words the Ring mus go to Gondor I still shudder. but maybe less and less each time I watch it - must remember, it's only a diversion!!!!!! Faramir turns out alright in the end LOL!