The Ring of Saruman?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

What of ents and the Druedain? Might some of the
Druedain have dwelt in eastern Middle-earth?

Well I did think of them, but it seems to me that the Druedain are part of the race of Men (certainly, if Hobbits are -- as I believe -- then the Woses are too!); Ents I think are not really a 'race' insofar as they are, well, trees....and thus part of the nature to which Radagast is associated.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

They had 'flirted with Sauron' in the making of the rings, but their essential 'sin' was their desire to 'embalm' the world - which is what lead them to fall for Sauron's offer of aid.

I take your point, and it was one that had occurred to me. And yet each of the Rings contributed significantly towards the success of the Quest to destroy the Ring which, presumably, was in line with Eru's plan. Where would Rivendell and Lothlorien have been without Nenya and Vilya? And where would the Quest have been without these Havens? Specifically, where would Frodo have been without the Power of Vilya brought down upon the Nine Black Riders (assuming, which I do, that such Power was drawn upon, at least in part, to invoke the flooding of the Ford). And Narya was used more actively, by Gandalf, given its association with his mission to rekindle the hearts of the Free Peoples.

Is there not therefore a tension between the "sin" of their creation and their contribution towards the victory of good over evil, in accordance with Eru's plan. Or ios this another example of Eru's words to Melkor that (to paraphrase) all the evil that he created would only contribute ultimately towards the greater glory of good?

On the association of the Istari with the primary races, the concept does not really grab me. if anything, though, would Saruman, as a Valar of Aule, not be more closely associated with the Dwarves?

Originally Posted by davem

They had 'flirted with Sauron' in the making of the rings, but their essential 'sin' was their desire to 'embalm' the world - which is what lead them to fall for Sauron's offer of aid.

By way of an aside, I am currently designing a boardgame based on the War of the Ring (as yet if another were needed ), and the suitability of the map of Western Middle-earth for such purpose, specifically with regard to the strategic placement of mountains and strongholds, is striking.

[Bêthberry]

I wonder, is sin an at all appropriate word to use about Middle-earth?

There is, after all, no "Fall" in the Legendarium--Tolkien said he hesitated to incorporate one so as to avoid the possibility of parody-- such as that in Genesis, and LotR appears to have a natural form of religion, without ritual, forms, churches and priests.

Without 'original sin' can there be any 'sin'? Note, I'm not saying there isn't error and evil, just that the connotations of 'sin' might be too Primary World for this sub-created world.

[narfforc]

Just to put Saucy right, sorry you may have already spotted your mistake, Saruman was a Maia, not a Vala. Also the Noldor lived in Aman with the Powers, learning much of Aule.

The Wizards Pallando and Alatar are linked to Orome in UF, so if we look at the description of this Vala, we read:

Orome loved the lands of Middle-earth, and left them unwillingly and came last to Valinor; and often of old he passed back east over the mountains and returned with his host to the hills and the plains. He is a hunter of monsters and fell beasts, and he delights in horses and hounds; and all trees he loves, for which reason he is called Aldaron, and by the Sindar Tauron, the Lord of Forests.

Orome also trained his folk in the pursuit of the evil creatures of Melkor.

So here are a few possible reasons why at least three of the five went east:

1. To give aid to any of the remaining good Children of Iluvatar.

2. To protect any forests, that may still have Ents/Entwives living there.

3. To pursue any remaining creatures of Melkor ie: A Balrog/Dragon.

4. To stop the Men of the East from serving Sauron.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Just to put Saucy right, sorry you may have already spotted your mistake, Saruman was a Maia, not a Vala.

Doh!

It was only a minor thought anyway. As I said, I don't really buy the Istar/race association thing. The Istari were sent to guide and assist all of the Free Peoples in the struggle against Sauron. So each of them, in carrying out their mission, were required to work with each of the races. Even before Saruman fell to evil, Gandalf travelled widely amng all races and cultures. He is most associated with Hobbits and Humans because that is where we find him in the story - where the "action" is towards the end of the Third Age, if you like. But he also travelled widely among the with Elves, and the Dwarves too, probably. If anything, it was Saruman who had the closest association with Men, being as he was given the keys of a Gondorian stronghold, which later bordered on Rohan. I would say that the Blue Wizards went East because there were people of all races dwelling there to whom their mission extended. Radagast, of course, "went native".

[narfforc]

A thought came to me about how the Ainur have the ability to give power of themselves into underlings. Morgoth gave much of his power into his armies and vast works. Sauron did likewise, lending power to his chief servants.
Was it possible that Saruman was able, by means of his ring, to transfer power to his servants. One of the main weapons of Saruman was The Power of his Voice, the way it could even manipulate you way one thought, and make you think other than what you know. Can Saruman have given Grima son of Galmod, the power of voice, think of what Wormtongue means, twisted words, and how many listened.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by narfforc

A thought came to me about how the Ainur have the ability to give power of themselves into underlings. Morgoth gave much of his power into his armies and vast works. Sauron did likewise, lending power to his chief servants.
Was it possible that Saruman was able, by means of his ring, to transfer power to his servants. One of the main weapons of Saruman was The Power of his Voice, the way it could even manipulate you way one thought, and make you think other than what you know. Can Saruman have given Grima son of Galmod, the power of voice, think of what Wormtongue means, twisted words, and how many listened.

Why would his ring give him that ability? There's nothing in Tolkien's work to suggest that rings are little power-ups that can be made to confer this or that ability of choice to their maker(s)/bearer(s). If you can provide evidence that Saruman 1) had this ability, 2) had this ability after creating his ring, and 3) did not have this ability before creating his ring, then you might have a reason to wonder. Otherwise it's absolutely useless speculation. Along those same lines, one might wonder if Saruman's ring gave him the ability to wield a knife, dance a jig, or check his e-mail.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by narfforc

A thought came to me about how the Ainur have the ability to give power of themselves into underlings. Morgoth gave much of his power into his armies and vast works. Sauron did likewise, lending power to his chief servants.
Was it possible that Saruman was able, by means of his ring, to transfer power to his servants. One of the main weapons of Saruman was The Power of his Voice, the way it could even manipulate you way one thought, and make you think other than what you know. Can Saruman have given Grima son of Galmod, the power of voice, think of what Wormtongue means, twisted words, and how many listened.

Do we know if Grima had a Ring? It is possible that Saruman made one for him if he sought to control the man in any way.

Anyway, I think there is plenty of evidence in the text that Saruman was using sanwe, as did Gandalf. Note that Aragorn warns that few could ever be left alone with Saruman due to the power of his mind:

'No," said Aragorn. 'Once he was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvellously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt. That power he certainly still keeps. There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him, even now when he has suffered a defeat. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, perhaps, now that his wickedness has been laid bare, but very few others."

And then there is the very powerful passage where Gandalf and Saruman are locked in some kind of mental battle. Not only do the two wizards strive with one another in thought, but those around them are aware of the battle, even if they cannot discern what is being 'said' (probably as they did not have such honed skills of sanwe):

So great was the power that Saruman exerted in this last effort that none that stood within hearing were unmoved. But now the spell was wholly different. They heard the gentle remonstrance of a kindly king with an erring but much-loved minister. But they were shut out, listening at a door to words not meant for them: ill-mannered children or stupid servants overhearing the elusive discourse of their elders, and wondering how it would affect their lot. Of loftier mould these two were made: reverend and wise. It was inevitable that they should make alliance. Gandalf would ascend into the tower, to discuss deep things beyond their comprehension in the high chambers of Orthanc. The door would be closed, and they would be left outside, dismissed to await allotted work or punishment. Even in the mind of Theoden the thought took shape, like a shadow of doubt: "He will betray us; he will go--we shall be lost."

Then Gandalf laughed. The fantasy vanished like a puff of smoke.

I do think that the Rings of Power may have been created to tap into sanwe, as the evidence for it is certainly strong enough, displayed in their effects on those who bear them. So for Saruman, well versed in Ring Lore, to also attempt to tap into this power is entirely possible.

I also happen to think that Saruman may have created his own Ring in order to help him in his aim to build up an army; this seems to me to be linked to the 'breaking the light' idea - as a prism will break white light into colours, maybe 'breaking the light' with the use of a powerful Ring could have helped Saruman to sub-create his armies.

Note that Saruman seems to have possession of his Ring when he goes to The Shire - nobody takes it from him. And even here he seems to have retained the incredible power of his voice, his ability to command the will of others, despite having no staff or status.