The Ring of Saruman?

[narfforc]

I agree Manwe that there is not much evidence either way, and that is the whole point of why we suppose or surmise, I welcome your point of view to this thread, your stand point has much validity, yet in my view I would like to think that Saruman had set his foot on the first rung of the ladder towards making his ring of power, he had that capability, desire and motivation.

[Rhod the Red]

"I would like to think that Saruman had set his foot on the first rung of the ladder towards making his ring of power, he had that capability, desire and motivation." Seconded.

[Mänwe]

nafforc and Rhod, a deeply unsettling thought. I put to you the question,

"When was it created?"

Would we agree it was made before he left for Middle Earth on his 'mission' or while he was in Middle Earth? I would also question, if he had indeed crafted it while he was residing in Middle Earth, would this be seen as breaking the rule set to the five Istari by the Valar.

"...were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt." - The Istari, Unfinished Tales

Could the attempted forging of a ring of power go against the rules here? In arguement that it is, well they were instructed to "advise and unite" not challenge the dominance or Sauron nor control men's wills, if we are to assume that perhaps his ring was to help him in this endevour.

However I think there is more against this theory. I assume had he broken the 'rules' then there would have been some sort of intervention from the Valar, thus his ring did not bring about any upheaval. Though still sufficient to warrant Gandalf's attention.

I would value your views and comments.

[narfforc]

The very desire of the One Ring was enough to corrupt, and as is said: It is dangerous to study too deeply the arts of the enemy. Saruman would have crafted the ring at some stage after his corruption, and well into his sojourn in Middle-earth, and as for breaking the rules that had been set on The Istari, he had probably broken most of them by the time he had made his ring. That brings us to The Valar, they did not directly intercede against Sauron, so I presume they would not against Saruman, they knew how dangerous it was to incarnate Maiar into The Istari, if they had wanted to have kept them from turning, they should not have given them the weakness's of the body.

[Mänwe]

Do you not find this strange though nafforc, you say,

"if they had wanted to have kept them from turning, they should not have given them the weakness's of the body."

But it was not the Valar who gave them this body. As I am sure you are aware they were required to take human form, there is no specific text that shows Valar giving them such a form.

Therefore I ponder as to why Saruman who already had betrayed the Order and the Valar in his search for the One Ring and open campaign to rule Middle Earth, did not take another form, and directly challege Sauron, breaking his "human" form. Are we to suppose that there is some force that prevents them from doing so? Or did he wish to have possession of the One Ring before he did so? There is no textual evidence I have read that answers this.

Am I now straying into the realms of 'what if's', I think I am.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mänwë

But it was not the Valar who gave them this body. As I am sure you are aware they were required to take human form, there is no specific text that shows Valar giving them such a form.

Therefore I ponder as to why Saruman who already had betrayed the Order and the Valar in his search for the One Ring and open campaign to rule Middle Earth, did not take another form, and directly challege Sauron, breaking his "human" form. Are we to suppose that there is some force that prevents them from doing so? Or did he wish to have possession of the One Ring before he did so? There is no textual evidence I have read that answers this.

Maybe I'm reading too much into the words 'In the likeness of Men they appeared, old but vigorous, and they changed little with the years, and aged but slowly, though great cares lay on them; great wisdom they had, and many powers of mind and hand.' along with your words 'they were required to take human form', but its certainly possible that the operative terms here are 'human' & 'Men' (which Tolkien capitalises btw). My suspicion is that they are not free to alter their 'human' form. Why inhabit old bodies if they had any option? I tend toward Narfforc's view, to the extent that if the Valar did not actually give them the forms of old Men, there was certainly some specific reason for them having the bodies of old Men & as the Valar were behind the whole thing one can only assume it was their idea, & that if the Istari had freedom to alter their forms Saruman at least would have done so. It would seem that 'incarnation' imposed certain limitations of form on them & that they efectively became 'incarnates', no more able to alter their forms at will than Elves or Men.

[Rhod the Red]

"I assume had he broken the 'rules' then there would have been some sort of intervention from the Valar, thus his ring did not bring about any upheaval. Though still sufficient to warrant Gandalf's attention.

I would value your views and comments."

I think he made it after moving into Orthnac. The lore of the Rings of Power would only have been written, etc, in Middle-earth. About the time of The Hobbit, perhaps using the powers of that Ring to drive Sauron out of Dol Guldor. We know his 'devices' as Elrond called them, were used to drive him out.

You'd need to be pretty powerful to drive out a Dark Lord, even when reduced to some sort of spirit, out of a mountain. Even though Sauron pretended to be forced out. I'm sure he put up a fight of some kind, pretending to resist.

Yes, I think the fact he made it violated the mission of the Istari. We can only assume that by the time Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldor, and then started searching for the One Ring in the Anduin, then Saruman had violated the mission by doing likewise with 'spies'.